Max aluminium and steel thickness for my mig

  1. robertlaurenson Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Shetland
    Hi all
    Quick question. Actually 2.
    I have a mig, a 200A synergic double pulse inverter from Warrior Welders (phil weeks)
    Max settings are 200A and 34.5v.
    100% duty cycle at full whack

    From your experience what would you say would be the max steel and aluminium thickness this machine will be capable of?

    I have welded up to 8mm Aluminium at around 180A (machine sets its self synergic by turning the amps up and down)

    Have a few future projects planned and want to know what the max capabilities of this machine are.

    Another note, in synergic mode when at 200A it is 28.5v, the volts can then be manually increased to 34.5 but the amps still stay at 200, wire speed maxed out also.
     
  2. tom2207 Member

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    1,604
    Location:
    uk northern ireland
    What are you feeding the machine power wise , to get those numbers ..
     
  3. robertlaurenson Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Shetland
    Its run off a 32A single phase supply.
     
  4. Hood

    Hood If it walks like a duck....

    Messages:
    11,418
    Location:
    Carnoustie, Scotland
    In Aluminium I think 8mm will be about the max although you may manage 10mm depending on joint type. You will be on the top end of the welder so duty cycle may come into play.

    How are you getting on with the welder, I remember you saying you had bought it but can't recall you coming back with any followup reports.

    Got any pics of the Alu welding, would love to see what it is capable of.


    Edit
    Just seen you are saying duty cycle is 100% at full whack, that is unusual even for top end welders. Maybe it is a detuned 250Amp or something if it is giving you 100% duty cycle.
     
    tom2207 likes this.
  5. robertlaurenson Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Shetland
    Hello again Hood,
    Sorry i have been quiet on here, have been completing my workshop.
    But to answer your question, the welder is great, honestly first class service from Phil and the team, if you want a welder that does what it says on the tin with an awesome backup team i would suggest anyone goes to them.

    The duty cycle as explained by Phil is 100% because of they way they build their machines, the basic box for it they buy in and then they fit their own inverters, heat sinks etc, a lot of their welders are or can be bought in 100% duty cycle variations. This particular one i have before any models were sold was tested at full whack for hours on end and temperature monitored while doing so, i think to be honest most of the "brand name" welders you can buy are made with profit in mind as are most things. Phil and the team while im sure they are doing well profit wise build and stand by their machines for 5 years minimum and use the best componenets available. One of the most knowledgeable guys on welders i have ever spoken to.

    With that in mind and the 200a 34.v volt setting what would you think would be the max for the machine, in Steel, Ali, Stainless?

    As far as pictures go, im away offshore just now, dont have any pictures here. but suffice to say the welder is great. Works great as a basic mig, but where it really shines is when welding Aluminium with the pulse and double pulse settings, welded right down to .8mm aluminium and with a near tig like appearance. infact not near but very very close. And of course a lot faster than the tig would do it.
     
  6. Hood

    Hood If it walks like a duck....

    Messages:
    11,418
    Location:
    Carnoustie, Scotland
    Welder sounds good, I will have a look on my welders today when I get to the workshop and set to 200 Amp and see what thickness they are saying for that current. I have found the EWM's are very close to what they say so if for example I set 10mm it will be very close to perfect when you actually weld 10mm so should be a good guide for giving you current and voltage.


    Afraid I can't give you any answers or at least real life answers, of likely Max for steel of stainless with mig/pulse Mig as I only ever use mine for Aluminium.
     
  7. robertlaurenson Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Shetland
    One other question before you check.
    With the option to increase the voltage as i mentioned (amps stuck at 200 and volts can be increased to 34.5) would that give me in theory another mil or two?
     
  8. Hood

    Hood If it walks like a duck....

    Messages:
    11,418
    Location:
    Carnoustie, Scotland
    Probably not a lot or at least if the synergic lines are good in the first instance. Increasing the voltage trim will alter the arc length so it won't really give you much more capacity but would just cause the arc length to increase and possibly burn back to the tip.
     
    tom2207 likes this.
  9. robertlaurenson Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Shetland
    Yes thats kind of what i thought, ive tried it up to 8mm, and the synergic part is pretty spot on.
    Look forward to hearing what your machine says.
     
  10. Munkul

    Munkul Member

    Messages:
    2,132
    Cumbria, UK
    Too high a voltage just gives a long arc length, a wide wet bead and actually reduces penetration some times.

    I'd say 6mm fillet welds would be the comfortable max at 200a, but thicker for other joint types.
     
  11. matt1978

    matt1978 http://www.uk.masters-of-speed.de/

    The amps shouldn’t be fixed at 200, the wire feed rate will have an upper limit in m/min but with Mig welding the displayed current/amperage won’t be fixed it will move up and down by you pushing the torch closer and pulling it further away from the weld pool during welding. This is called the stick out, and varying the stick out can change the displayed amperage by as much as +\- 30 amps.

    The upper current range (eg 200 amps) should only be fixed in MMA and Tig mode

    With Mig the Displayed current is a product of the welding voltage and wirefeed rate. This product is effected as I said by things like Stick out, but also wire diameter.
     
  12. Hood

    Hood If it walks like a duck....

    Messages:
    11,418
    Location:
    Carnoustie, Scotland
    Ok here is what my EWM's say for the synergig lines.
    EWM Phoenix 330


    ScreenHunter 58.jpg


    Change to material thickness at the above current and it is ..

    ScreenHunter 59.jpg


    The EWM Phoenix 355 is as follows.

    ScreenHunter 56.jpg

    And change to thickness at the above settings and it says.

    ScreenHunter 57.jpg


    The older 330 in the top pics I have the voltage trim at zero just because the last time I used it I was messing around with some steel and never changed the voltage trim back to what I normally prefer for Alu. The 355 has a voltage trim of 1.8v so it would be showing a lower voltage if set to zero.
     
  13. Hood

    Hood If it walks like a duck....

    Messages:
    11,418
    Location:
    Carnoustie, Scotland

    With a standard Mig that is definitely the case but would a synergic pulse mig vary so much? Reason I am asking is they have brains so constantly alter the wire feed to keep the arc length constant or as constant as they can anyway. Obviously they will vary but I wouldn't have thought by that much and the better the refresh rate of the welder the less it will change.
     
  14. matt1978

    matt1978 http://www.uk.masters-of-speed.de/

    The wire feed rate is the constant, this doesn’t change. This is why it’s so important to follow the wire feed rate when looking at WPS.

    Even with pulse the current can fluctuate a lot based on the stick out as increasing the stick out to say 25mm will have a markedly lower resistance compared to a stick out of say 10mm.

    Your talking about the arc length. Modern synergic pulse machines Will maintain the arc length which is the distance from the end of wire to the top of the weld pool. Arc length and stick out are two different things. Stick out is the distance from the end of the gas shroud to the work piece.

    In any case my point is that you can reach the maximum voltage and the maximum wire speed rate from the machine but the max displayed amperage shouldn’t be fixed at 200 amps.

    Prior to welding you can turn it up to the maximum on the synergic line and it may well read 200 amps but this is only a proposed value, the actual measured value isn’t displayed until during the welding process and as I said it won’t be capped at 200 amps even though it’s a 200 amp machine, running everything flat out you may well see the actual recorded welding current at being 200+

    Usually inbetween the V/A displays is a “hold” light and after welding has finished the hold light will illuminate and that means that the current value displayed in the window was the actual average current measured during the welding process. This is the current value you would write down when developing a WPS, but the current is usually always a guide because as I said it can vary depending on stick out. Where as wire feed speed in m/min is completely regulated
     
  15. Munkul

    Munkul Member

    Messages:
    2,132
    Cumbria, UK
    I'm sure I've read somewhere on here that you or someone else had a micormig 250 running above 300 amps no problem at all :) Just on a decent wire size and high feedrate.

    Do any MIG pulse programs use wire speed control, do you know Matt? Or is everything on the market today using fixed wire speed? Suppose it's too tricky with slack in the feed lines etc to make high frequency pulse or micro adjustments practical. But push-pull setups with a "smart" pull gun?
     
  16. robertlaurenson Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Shetland
    Just to clarify, what i was talking about was when setting the machine while not in use.
    You set the amps to 200
    And a correction from what i said before when the amps are at 200, the voltage is at 24.5.
    You can then increase the voltage up to 34.5 but the amps dont increase along with it. Its a percentage increase on the volts only.
    When welding the amps jump around as you say in line with welding and do as you say increase over 200, most i could make it do whilst looking at the machine and not what i was welding was 227. Just did it on an 8mm bit of aluminium as thats the thickest i have just to check but at 200 up to the 227 it just blew out the aluminium.
     
  17. robertlaurenson Member

    Messages:
    44
    Location:
    Shetland
    Thanks for that.
    From the 2nd machine i think i could probably get 10mm on mine max.
    Does that machine have a setting to check what the same amps would give you on steel and stainless?
     
  18. Hood

    Hood If it walks like a duck....

    Messages:
    11,418
    Location:
    Carnoustie, Scotland

    Excellent description, thanks. Yes mine has the hold function and as you say it will be the average. Just looked back at a video I made for a different reason and I had the EWM 330 wire feed set and the display was on amps and showing 160 Amps. Whilst welding it seemed to be varying between 160 and 163 amps and after finishing the held display showed 161Amps.

    If I ever get a chance I am going to do some experimenting with things as I am a sad kind of person :D
     
  19. Hood

    Hood If it walks like a duck....

    Messages:
    11,418
    Location:
    Carnoustie, Scotland
    The EWM varies the wire feed when in double pulse.
     
  20. Hood

    Hood If it walks like a duck....

    Messages:
    11,418
    Location:
    Carnoustie, Scotland
    Yes they both have synergic lines for all sorts, will check with the newer 355 as that is easier to set as the jobs are set via the dial where the older 2330 you need to choose a few different things, then again most are preselected as you alter the others.

    What wire dia would you be using for steel and stainless? BTW that was 1.2mm Al/Mg in the above pictures, it will be vastly different if say a silicon alloy.
    .
     
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