M4A1 Sherman project

[PTvor]

Quantity over quality , a bit like the mosin nagant or lee enfield compared to the mauser 98k.

That Mauser bolt was a pain with it's sodding safety catch. The Enfield was the first 60 degree bolt, very fast and accurate enough. We used Enfields for sniping for long enough, but what was required wasn't a target rifle or a hunting rifle.

As for WWII tanks, it was a matter of good engineering, which means doing for a shilling what any damned fool can do for ten quid and making something right for the job. The job was usually infantry support, not tank duels. The T34 was a piece of good engineering, the Tiger was idiotic, high quality idiocy, but still idiocy.

British WWII tanks weren't even idiotic.

It isn't a question of quantity over quality, it's good enough quality in good enough quantity beats rubbish in any quantity, or the best you can conceive but too limited a quantity to make a difference.

 

[ronan]

The intellegence of the allies must have been very poor regarding military vechicles during ww2 , putting british and american tanks up against something like the tiger tanks with its massive armour and 88mm gun was a sacrifice of human life , the allies had superior fighter planes such as the hurricane and spitfire , but fell flat in terms of tanks.

 

[tigler]

Yes, I've always found that strange. All the allied tanks were inferior to German armour in all except numbers. The Germans always outgunned and out armoured us but made drastic strategic and logistic errors which is the only thing that prevented our defeat.
The only aspect the allies had superiority in was heavy bombers and ingenuity.

 

[PTvor]

There's a lot more to this than a heavily armoured tank with a great big gun.

One of the design constraints of the Sherman was that it had to be shipped across the Atlantic with existing shipping and port facilities.

What's the good of a great big super tank if it can only be moved any distance by rail, making it vulnerable to ground attack aircraft and when it gets where it's needed it's too thirsty and is too heavy to cross a lot of bridges? Another factor is reliability and the ease with which it can be maintained in primitive conditions in action.

 

[tigler]

Agreed, hence my comment regarding strategic and logistic errors.
The Nazi's biggest mistake was taking on Russia in winter, IMO that lost them the war.
Their equipment wasn't winterised and their infantry did not have adequate clothing.

 

[penfold]

Barbarossa was delayed when Adolf got sidetracked by Greece; the original plan stood a very good chance of seeing the swastika flying over the Kremlin by the end of October 1941, which was why winter clothing was only available for 10% or so and little effort had been expended winterising the vehicles.

 

[pedrobedro]

Don't mention the war, I think we got away with it. (Basil Fawlty)

Check it out.

 

[stormin]

There's a few other good Sherman restorations detailed on here and also some quite knowledgable folk with regards to details and parts availability.

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/index.php

May be worth registering and posting up some details of your project there too, there'll be plenty of people myself included interested how this progresses.

 

[david500]

T34 is my favorite tank of the war! very advanced for the time, that Koshkin was some bloke, even had torsion bar suspension on the later ones and all designed and built to a very small budget,500hp V12 Engine,coil sprung (I think)

woof! woof! as Oddball would say

Also quite liked the soviet swarm and attack policy!
Also a lot of advancements in Automatic welding and Heat treating also came from building those tanks.
Sadly most of the world remembers Russia for putting Bombs on Dogs...

Also quite like the Messerschmitt BF110 with the big twin engines! Rather have that than a Sptifire.

 

[Omniata]

T34 is my favorite tank of the war! very advanced for the time, that Koshkin was some bloke, even had torsion bar suspension on the later ones and all designed and built to a very small budget, Also quite liked the soviet swarm and attack policy!
Sadly most of the world remembers Russia for putting Bombs on Dogs...

Also quite like the Messerschmitt BF110 with the big twin engines! Rather have that than a Sptifire.

Or these the Messerschmitt Me262 with twin jet engines...

Acclaimed to be essentially the first operation jet fighter but brought into service too late...

 

[Wedg1e]

Or these the Messerschmitt Me262 with twin jet engines...

Acclaimed to be essentially the first operation jet fighter but brought into service too late...

...and, perhaps luckily for us, more of a threat to their own pilots than ours. Their turbines were notoriously unreliable, often not even getting the plane off the runway before self-destructing...

(I've deleted some of this in light of reading the Wikipedia stuff, some of which contradicts what I thought I knew OK, the 'pedia can be wrong, but so can books...)

 

[david500]

Amazing really that these things were Desgined and built in the 40's and even earlier
However I think this is the most suprising of all those jet planes-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Vampire

 

[ronan]

T34 is my favorite tank of the war! very advanced for the time, that Koshkin was some bloke, even had torsion bar suspension on the later ones and all designed and built to a very small budget,500hp V12 Engine,coil sprung (I think)

woof! woof! as Oddball would say

Also quite liked the soviet swarm and attack policy!
Also a lot of advancements in Automatic welding and Heat treating also came from building those tanks.
Sadly most of the world remembers Russia for putting Bombs on Dogs...

Also quite like the Messerschmitt BF110 with the big twin engines! Rather have that than a Sptifire.

Bombs on dogs amongst other things , stalin being every bit as a big a mass murderer as hitler or any body else , just cleverer at concealing it , and being a very real threat to western european democracy , i don't know what stopped the ussr invading europe.

 

[tigler]

Well they were an Allie and they had been promised enough of it when Germany was defeated !
Stalin also kept extermination in house rather than other countries, so the west kept out of it. Anyway, who in their right mind would try to take on Russia !

 

[david500]

Dont remember claiming the soviets were angels in pink slippers? And The west has a history of doing some pretty horrific things in the name of democracy as well, although thats from a different point in time.
Regardless lets not get bogged down by that here, This thread is about the tanks and other machines, No one really wants to talk about their purpose or what they were used for in too much detail.

My Bombs on dogs refrence was to do with the Russian warfare tactics, Most people think they were bumbling idiots with poorly built & basic weapons. Which is no were near the case

 

[tigler]

Far from it, they are masters of improvisation, use of materials and devising the most effective weapon for any given purpose.
For example, the Americans spent lots of money on devising a ball point pen for use in outer space, called the Fisher Space Pen. It worked very well and you can buy a replica on ebay ! The Russians used a pencil in their space program !!
Going back to tanks, the T34 inspired the armour design of the Tiger II or King Tiger and in fact can be seen in the design of all subsequent tanks.
They also used diesel power and a superior track wheel design which didn't get blocked with mud or freeze.
Then of course there is the AK47, no need to say any more on that !

 

[mike os]

, Most people think .....poorly built & basic weapons. Which is no were near the case

having been on the recieving end, i can assure you this is not the case....

 

[ronan]

What are the turret and main body casings made from anyway on the sherman ? Were they cast steel ? they were made in locomotive works in america weren't they ? I seem to remember seeing pictures of them leaving the factory , i was always surprised that the americans who are normally of the "bigger is better" frame of mind fitted such a pathetically small main gun to the sherman , it looked like a slightly overgrown rifle barrel.

 

[mike os]

weight again... had to be sufficiently robust and sufficiently portable.....& end of the day worked just fine.

 

[ronan]

weight again... had to be sufficiently robust and sufficiently portable.....& end of the day worked just fine.

But they did change the main gun after a time as the original fell into the "chocolate teapot" catagory, the original was laughable especially compared to the german 88 mm monster.