Late 80s Renault 2.1D - budget rebuild problem

[Nomad]

Is anyone familiar with rebuilding late 1980s Renault 2.1D engines (engine code 852 not the more common J8S )

I do a lot of work on older engines (1960s-1990s) and often remove the head & sump from tired engines so I can push the piston/conrod up & out, inspect things then refit with new pistons & rings (or just rings), new big end bearings, etc.

Today I found a new problem, I've removed the head, removed the sump, pulled 1 big end and saw - as expected - the journal is ok but the bearing shell has worn through the coating.
The place I order spares from has a 60% sale on 2,1D parts (selling off due to not popular these days) so I put in a quick order and got piston rings, big end shells, new head bolts (last set in stock !), gaskets etc...

It's only when I went back to do more work I found the piston/conrod won't move up as the conrod is too big to fit through the cylinder It won't move down as the crank is blocking it.
The motor has wet liners, the factory method is to remove the liners & pistons as a unit then separate them, disturbing the liners gets very complicated (and expensive) very quickly so I want to avoid.
A friend is rebuilding a 2.5D of the same age and they did my usual - head off - sump off - push pistons up & out ... no problems. I'm guessing Renault used the same chunky 2.5D conrods that are too big to fit through my 2.1D bores.

The bores have slight wear so I'm declaring the engine scrap unless I can find a DIY fix as as it's not worth doing a full rebuild (new bores & pistons are out of budget)
Pulling the engine out & removing the crank is DIY'able but hard work on my own with no engine crane. Refitting the crank looks too complicated for DIY on the driveway and will add £££ for main bearings, seals & gaskets etc so is not an option.

What are my options? I'd rather not fit a new engine but is a 2.5D or 2.5D-turbo a straight swap? (my engine is pre-immobiliser, any replacement needs to be same as rewiring for an immobiliser isn't happening)

Before I put it in this engine in the skip and find another engine I'd like to see what's possible ...

Theoretically, if you *needed* to shave 1.5mm off the width of a chunky 87.5mm conrod so it would pass through a 86mm bore (and the conrod was still fitted in the block restricting access) what tools would you use?
Question2: how long would you expect it to last before it self destructs

Even if it blows up when I try to start it, it will have cost me nothing but time....

 

[Domdom]

I’d use the same tool I use for balancing sets of pistons and rods, a die grinder. Although, shaving off 2mm is still a hefty chunk of metal being removed.

Must admit though, I’ve never come across a rod that’s bigger than the bore. But if you do have a go, make sure to not add any stress points. Smoothness good, angles bad.

 

[premmington]

Wet liners - argh!

Not removed too many from cars - had a few out of lorries and tractors in my time - Dad got/had hydraulic tool somewhere for the job (I don't know where it is - nor do I want to!)

 

[8ob]

Is anyone familiar with rebuilding late 1980s Renault 2.1D engines (engine code 852 not the more common J8S )

I do a lot of work on older engines (1960s-1990s) and often remove the head & sump from tired engines so I can push the piston/conrod up & out, inspect things then refit with new pistons & rings (or just rings), new big end bearings, etc.

Today I found a new problem, I've removed the head, removed the sump, pulled 1 big end and saw - as expected - the journal is ok but the bearing shell has worn through the coating.
The place I order spares from has a 60% sale on 2,1D parts (selling off due to not popular these days) so I put in a quick order and got piston rings, big end shells, new head bolts (last set in stock !), gaskets etc...

It's only when I went back to do more work I found the piston/conrod won't move up as the conrod is too big to fit through the cylinder It won't move down as the crank is blocking it.
The motor has wet liners, the factory method is to remove the liners & pistons as a unit then separate them, disturbing the liners gets very complicated (and expensive) very quickly so I want to avoid.
A friend is rebuilding a 2.5D of the same age and they did my usual - head off - sump off - push pistons up & out ... no problems. I'm guessing Renault used the same chunky 2.5D conrods that are too big to fit through my 2.1D bores.

The bores have slight wear so I'm declaring the engine scrap unless I can find a DIY fix as as it's not worth doing a full rebuild (new bores & pistons are out of budget)
Pulling the engine out & removing the crank is DIY'able but hard work on my own with no engine crane. Refitting the crank looks too complicated for DIY on the driveway and will add £££ for main bearings, seals & gaskets etc so is not an option.

What are my options? I'd rather not fit a new engine but is a 2.5D or 2.5D-turbo a straight swap? (my engine is pre-immobiliser, any replacement needs to be same as rewiring for an immobiliser isn't happening)

Before I put it in this engine in the skip and find another engine I'd like to see what's possible ...

Theoretically, if you *needed* to shave 1.5mm off the width of a chunky 87.5mm conrod so it would pass through a 86mm bore (and the conrod was still fitted in the block restricting access) what tools would you use?
Question2: how long would you expect it to last before it self destructs

Even if it blows up when I try to start it, it will have cost me nothing but time....

I put a Savana 2.1 ( nice engines) in a trenching machine, it replaced an old lister that didnt rev high enough for the job (Mericun machines that were sent over with a petrol engine and converted here by uk concessionaire, crap job) . That machine is now being cut up , can see if it still turns over if you like.

Bob

 

[Nomad]

A copy of the online manual says to remove liners with pistons then remove the pistons from the bottom of the liners.
The liners have a seal between the water jacket and the oil in the sump, if I disturb that I need new seals (dealer only part? cost if they are available??), setting the deck height when they go back is critical and I don't have the tools or the confidence that I can make it work, and the cost makes no sense on this tired engine.
The engine - with head and sump off - is still in the van. If I want to take the pistons out from below I need to pull the engine and remove the crank. Refitting the crank oil seals looks a difficult DIY job so I'd prefer to avoid it.

http://redirect.viglink.com/?key=71...ines-Workshop-Repair-Manual-77-11-293-322.pdf

@Bob many thanks! No need to do anything yet as I'm still looking at options but first thoughts are :
WOW, you just made my day !
Is it a diesel? (swapping to petrol will upset insurance etc)
Front or rear wheel drive? With gearbox? ( I'm thinking sump shapes, oil pump pickup, etc...)
Was it working ok when it got parked up? It's to go in a van being used on the road so needs to pass emissions etc...
Is there anything complicated on the wiring (immobiliser etc) that I'd need to patch or is it a simple feed to the run solenoid on the injector pump?
If needed, could you get it on a pallet and I ask our forum transport guru to arrange collection? I've already sent a message to fizzy giving him advance notice just in case
Apologies for all the questions, for now I'm just trying to work out my best way forward

Photos of the offending article just to prove (to myself & others) that I'm not imagining the problem, bottom cap perched on top of the bore when it should fall down
(the photo makes it look worse than real life as the bottom cap is canted at an angle)

 

[8ob]

@Bob many thanks! No need to do anything yet as I'm still looking at options but first thoughts are :
WOW, you just made my day !
Is it a diesel? (swapping to petrol will upset insurance etc)
Front or rear wheel drive? With gearbox? ( I'm thinking sump shapes, oil pump pickup, etc...)
Was it working ok when it got parked up?

Its a diesel and was all ok last time it was used, engine only, from a 21 which was with the engine in longitudinal with a transaxle for front wheel drive. UNI box.

Bob

 

[Domdom]

Photos of the offending article just to prove (to myself & others) that I'm not imagining the problem, bottom cap perched on top of the bore when it should fall down
(the photo makes it look worse than real life as the bottom cap is canted at an angle)
View attachment 450830

OK, looking at that, if it’s 1.5mm at the extreme edge of the conrod, it will be less in the middle. Then divide by 2 for the sides and you have 0.75mm to get out of it.

If you gently rounded the edges of the conrod you should be able to get it to fit through. I’ve taken more off when trying to lighten and balance. The rod has plenty of meat in that area and it’s only 3/4 of a mil to round off the edges. Nothing to lose if the engine is otherwise scrap.

The hardest part will be doing it in situ.

 

[Barking Mat]

Old Volvo marine engines had wet liners, once the joints on the bottom died, you could basically bin the engine.

I was asked many years ago to recon' one, the engineering company gave up trying to get the liners out, and it was scrapped.

 

[premmington]

Old Volvo marine engines had wet liners, once the joints on the bottom died, you could basically bin the engine.

I was asked many years ago to recon' one, the engineering company gave up trying to get the liners out, and it was scrapped.

Wet liners not nice mate - getting them out is no fun either - early ones before decent antifreeze suffered with cavitation of the bore liners.

cavitation of the bore liners - Google Search

I had loads of liners out of big plant/truck/agri stuff in the early years - due to this. Worm holes is my best description...

I not that keen on plated bores either - surface coating - Nickel Silicon Carbide or Chrome applied directly onto the aluminium cylinder bore. This means you into - boring and re sleeving or scraping the block.

 

[Smallfry]

2.5 will not work as its too integrated with the vehicle, but I don't know if the basic engine is similar enough to be able to bolt the old clockwork stuff to it.

The old 2.8 engine will probably work though and the best van engine there is IMO

 

[Nomad]

OK, looking at that, if it’s 1.5mm at the extreme edge of the conrod, it will be less in the middle. Then divide by 2 for the sides and you have 0.75mm to get out of it...

Nothing to lose if the engine is otherwise scrap.

That's my idea. I had ordered the parts before I found the problem so it will cost me nothing but time - it will be a learning exercise even if all I learn is "Don't do it again!"

@8ob message sent, your engine is a much better long term option than the one I currently have

 

[8ob]

 

[minimutly]

If you're sure the pistons come past the main bearings then pull the crank. oilseals are no biggie

 

[Nomad]

Hi, I'm used to rebuilding engines from this era but this has a lot of things I've never seen before and I'd prefer not to disturb bits if I can avoid it @minimutly

The factory guide to removing the crank makes scary reading !

Needing to make a puller strap to remove the oil seal casting, 200mm allen keys (& dealer only parts?) to refit, rebuild using 2-part silicone & a syringe + anything else I find on the way ... not my idea of fun
The alternative is to pull the liners which is even worse


The engine work started as a quick refresh, it's turning into a full project / real headache.

 

[minimutly]

I'd be suprised if they came down anyway....

 

[Barking Mat]

Hi, I'm used to rebuilding engines from this era but this has a lot of things I've never seen before and I'd prefer not to disturb bits if I can avoid it @minimutly

The factory guide to removing the crank makes scary reading !

Needing to make a puller strap to remove the oil seal casting, 200mm allen keys (& dealer only parts?) to refit, rebuild using 2-part silicone & a syringe + anything else I find on the way ... not my idea of fun
The alternative is to pull the liners which is even worse
View attachment 451068

The engine work started as a quick refresh, it's turning into a full project / real headache.

That's exactly what happens, then you realise it can't be fixed.

 

[Nomad]

If you're sure the pistons come past the main bearings then pull the crank. oilseals are no biggie

Hi .. The factory guide to removing the crank makes scary reading !

Needing to make a puller strap to remove the oil seal casting, 200mm allen keys (& dealer only parts?) to refit, rebuild using 2-part silicone & a syringe + anything else I find on the way ... not my idea of fun
The alternative is to pull the liners which is even worse

The engine work started as a quick refresh, it's turning into a full project / real headache.

I'd be suprised if they came down anyway....

Hi. Comments like this confuse me as you seem to be contradicting yourself, things that confuse me make me uneasy hence flagging it in the hope you can explain what I've missed

It's an unusual problem in what I thought would be a simple engine rebuild, there have been some very good suggestions and yours is the only one that I don't get. It may be me but ...


Thanks to everyone for the input, I know a lot more now than I did which was the whole point about asking the question. Now waiting for my delivery of rebuild parts before I do any more

 

[Nomad]

My parts order has arrived so I decided to pick this up again - and it's not going smoothly

Looking at the conrods and access while the motor is still in the van I'm getting tempted to just fit new big ends, new top piston rings (the only ones I can change without major work), put it together and see what happens.
This engine is scrap (worn bores) but doing the work is keeping me out of mischief while I try to arrange a replacement

I found a couple of workshop manuals online, both seem to cover the common J8S and my related 852 engines.
The latest problem - refitting new big end bearings. The 2 workshop manuals I've seen give different torque values and to make it even more "fun" they are using a daN.m scale that I've never heard of.

Todays question :
Does anyone know the torque for big end caps on an 2.1D 852 engine (ideally Ft/lbs or Newton/Meters not daNm ).

On a more positive note I think I've found something that could be adding to my backpressure problem - and I wish I hadn't
My feeler gauge set is 3mm thick - checking the original rings today is the first time I've found a gap more than that !
Is it ok to use 2 sets of feeler gauges stacked together or does anywhere sell extra thick sets??


Comparing the original (short) piston ring and the new (extended) version - the difference is noticeable.
I can measure the difference with a tape measure, no need for feelers or micrometers !
Hopefully the smaller ring gap will do something to reduce the backpressure
My new rings are supposedly pre-gapped for 86mm bores but if anyone has any suggestions I'll check'em.


The more I see the less concerned I am about experimenting on this engine to see what happens, I don't think it's possible my bodges will be worse than the last rebuild


The postie also brought a new glowplug timer relay, a handy thing to have on a diesel and as the one one mine was forcibly removed (along with most if the wires under the bonnet) I now need to work out how to wire it up.
Bonus points for anyone who can explain the connections, the 2 large heater connections are obvious, I'm guessing the others are Earth, Ign-switched, and a relay between "Glowpugs on" and "Glowplugs off". It's a big expensive item so I'd like to know for definite rather than experiment and blow it up. Apologies no cup for scale but it's a beast !


It's all good fun

 

[DanZac]

The 2 workshop manuals I've seen give different torque values and to make it even more "fun" they are using a daN.m scale that I've never heard of.

If you have the Tq in daNn that's Deca Newton Meters.

1Nm = 0.1 daNm

so easy enough to convert between the two. The French like to use obscure units, Peugeot like to play the same game.

Torque Unit Converter

Unit conversion to assist international measurement definitions.

www.norbar.com

 

[jmp49]

The renault master mk1 ph1 is from the late 80's and it has a big box that controls the glow plug timing, and quite frankly its not that intelligent, it comes on mid summer when it needs no additional heat to start and Id just be as happy with a button to press to heat, I think it was just seen a good way to educate people how to pre-heat a diesel for a cold start and avoid any confusions on the time period. Mine is a 1989 master pickup but with a Sofim 2.5 diesel engine, but they could be bought with the J8S motor.

I've take a screenshot from a electronic copy of a master manual I downloaded showing the connections for the J8S glow plug relay wiring in case it might be any help. The paper manual (/review technique) I have is probably better so I'll look at that tonight.