just been out on an emergency job for the neighbour

[BrokenBiker]

Girl over the road rang me in work today of my mrs phone asking advice about electrics, everytime she used the washing machine the rcd for downstairs sockets would trip.

pretty standard advice...stop using it until i can have a look later...

get home and she is outside having a fag and said that after she spoke to me she noticed a burning smell so she panicked and turned the breaker off for the sockets becasue she thought it was going to catch fire.

well i go in and first port of call is the washer, turn it on, wait a few seconds and sure enough, off goes the rcd. reset it all, pull the washer out to unplug it and notice its hardwired...she had no idea it had been hardwired and i cant think of any reason why you would hardwire a washer...

pull it out a bit further and notice it is just choc blocked in a back box with a blanking plate over it...then i notice its wired into a length of 6mm twin and earth...started to worry a bit at this point, traced cable back to CU and found it to be on a 40! amp mcb...

out of sheer curiosity i wanted to know what current it was actually pulling, so clamp meter at the ready i turned it on again and at the point it tripped the rcd it was pulling 37 amps...

needless to say i have disconected it and made safe but i am really struggling to understand why anyone (apparently fully qualified leccies) would runa drop of 6mm on a 40amp mcb for a washer, and then cut the plug off the washer and choc block it together...there is a 13 amp fuse in the plug for a reason and this could have easily led to a fire...

she is fuming to say the least and is going to be telling her landlord she wants it sorted (by me, so she knows its done properly) and wants the name of the people that did the work in the first place

 

[rtbcomp]

Perhaps it was originally intended for a cooker.

Re the fault on the washer - have a look at the heater element, I've seen one that was worn through by coins getting between the inner and outer drums. This caused the RCD to trip when the heater was switched on, once the water level in the tub covered the element.

 

[sparkysy]

Unbelievable what some people will leave in a dangerous state. I went to do a new bathroom the other day and the customer had just had her part P cert through from the last extension she had done about a month ago, I went to isolate the lighting circuit (no rcd protection and wrongly labelled) asked to see the test report well, not even the circuits on that were right and no mention of the lack of rcds or that the ring main had no continuity. What can you say, customer Is lead to believe it's all safe and then thinks your on the blag!

 

[the snooper]

Several issues at play here..
prob a diy job / general builder (not all, but quite a few think they "do electrics") ditto kitchen fitters
washer should be internally fused, why its not blowing is another question (prob as the RCD is reacting faster than the washer's internal fuse)
prob been an oven supply, which someone has repurposed...there still should be above worktop isolation though...
proper way to have done it, would have been either to leave the plug on....OR a switched FCU above the worktop with a flex outlet underneath.
Its Part P covered to alter the circuit, so unless your part of a scheme or willing to pay the BC charge...you legally can't do it...(wales never loosened the part P regs...) and the landlord could be in the poo big style if he permits you to.

I'd concur on the element, though really needs tested to be sure, along with checking the machine casing hasn't had its earth removed..

none of our washers have had an internal fuse

 

[the snooper]

The overcurrent device (MCB, Rewireable/Cartridge fuse, RCBO) is there to protect the appliance flex ONLY, the appliance itself is protected by its own internal fusing.
We only have plug fuses due to ring mains, no other plugs have fuses in them...(Euro, USA, Australian, South African, Israeli etc...)

yes I understand what you are saying but my point was that not everything has an internal fuse and some that do only have them on the pcb to protect the pcb ive never seen an internal fuse on our washing machines when ive had cause to repair them, same with tumblr dryers

 

[rtbcomp]

The overcurrent device (MCB, Rewireable/Cartridge fuse, RCBO) is there to protect the appliance flex ONLY, the appliance itself is protected by its own internal fusing.
We only have plug fuses due to ring mains, no other plugs have fuses in them...(Euro, USA, Australian, South African, Israeli etc...)

They protect the ring main cabling. The fuse in the plug protects the appliance flex.

 

[BrokenBiker]

none of my washers have had internal fuses that i know of either and ive had my latest one in bits twice to sort various things.

this shouldnt have been for a cooker as there is already a dedicated and properly installed cooker outlet and a built in electric hob and oven, and this is wired in udner the counter in the only space far a washer to go with dedicated plumbing for the washer

she text me just now saying she had a new boiler put in that was previously plugged in the same socket as the washer, but now she has an MCB for the boiler...leads me to think that they hardwired the boiler (for some reason) and then realised they didnt have anywhere to plug the washer in so used whatever they had in the van to get it working so they didnt get a bollocking for leaving her with no washer...

 

[BrokenBiker]

lso rtb is correct, the ring main is protected by the MCB/RDC in the CU, the appliance is protected by the fuse in the plug top

 

[the snooper]

none of my washers have had internal fuses that i know of either and ive had my latest one in bits twice to sort various things.

this shouldnt have been for a cooker as there is already a dedicated and properly installed cooker outlet and a built in electric hob and oven, and this is wired in udner the counter in the only space far a washer to go with dedicated plumbing for the washer

must have been for an industrial dry cleaning unit

 

[the snooper]

Note I said "cartridge fuse" ....the fuses in plugs are cartridge fuses.....

The RCD is there to protect against fault current - that covers BOTH the appliance AND the fixed wiring...
the MCB often will pop long before a plug top fuse will.....I've seen it multiple times (and thats on pre 16th installations without any RCDs)

More than likely the washer has a fusible link in it, rather than a glass or ceramic type cartridge fuse...easier and quicker to install in the factory and to replace if they fail and no connections to corrode

never seen one, have seen the fuses in the plug go on heater faults and seen the program contacts burn out but never seen a washing machine with one. I have seen them in freezers though

 

[brightspark]

the only washers ive ever encountered with fuses in side are industrial ones- the rcd is there to detect earth leakage and the mcb overcurrent

 

[brightspark]

well-if- the supply is fed direct of a 40amp mcb wired in 6.0mm in to the box change the blanking plate to a 13 amp fused switch spur and wire the -washing machine in direct and have the washer checked out job done

 

[BrokenBiker]

thats is what i plan on doing depending on what the washer verdict is. she said its a few years old so she may buy a new one. there are sockets near by so may spur off one of those to put a single socket in for it, its the only spur in the kitchen as far as i can see

 

[Sidewinder]

I doubt that the washer has an internal fuse, and I doubt that there is any requirement under the product standard that requires it.
MCB is to protect against short circuit, in the supply circuit, and earth fault in a TN system.
RCD is only required to protect against earth fault in TT & for additional protection.
Neither are to protect the appliance.
The plug top fuse is only to protect the appliance flex.

 

[Sidewinder]

Like I said, for additional protection.

mrfuzzy, I am FULLY aware of the requirements of Amd3, and even some, of those proposed to be coming in Amd4, or the 18th depending on which way the decision goes!

It is a shame that the, mos unreliable electrical protective device is now pretty much required universally in the domestic environment where the most vulnerable users are.

 

[the snooper]

I doubt that the washer has an internal fuse, and I doubt that there is any requirement under the product standard that requires it.
MCB is to protect against short circuit, in the supply circuit, and earth fault in a TN system.
RCD is only required to protect against earth fault in TT & for additional protection.
Neither are to protect the appliance.
The plug top fuse is only to protect the appliance flex.

that is not strictly true go back a few years before breakers and we had fuse wire, we also had metal bodied hand drills pillar drills and a whole manner of equipment without internal fuses that could fry us or catch fire if it went wrong and without the correct fuse fitted could do just that, we fit fuses to appliances according to their rated wattage / amperage draw, if it was simple as protecting the cable everything could be fitted with 2.5 and use only 13 amp fuses

 

[ukracer]

Note I said "cartridge fuse" ....the fuses in plugs are cartridge fuses.....

The RCD is there to protect against fault current - that covers BOTH the appliance AND the fixed wiring...
the MCB often will pop long before a plug top fuse will.....I've seen it multiple times (and thats on pre 16th installations without any RCDs)

More than likely the washer has a fusible link in it, rather than a glass or ceramic type cartridge fuse...easier and quicker to install in the factory and to replace if they fail and no connections to corrode

Glad I read on ....fusible links jumped to mind as well...

 

[Sidewinder]

Wrong, wrong, wrong.
The plug top fuse is ONLY to protect the appliance flex.
Forget history.
This is NOW.
This is the current requirements.
Plug top fuse is ONLY to protect the appliance flex.
The appliance is required to either meet the requirements for the plug top fuse, or have it's own internal protection.
However, that depends on the product standard as to whether this is required.

What was, is not what is now.

Therefore what I posted is exactly true.

 

[BrokenBiker]

anyway...now that we have discovered that fuses protect things...im still trying to figure out why someone thought a drop of 6mm was suitable for a washer

 

[brightspark]

anyway...now that we have discovered that fuses protect things...im still trying to figure out why someone thought a drop of 6mm was suitable for a washer

well- it is if u stick a socket on the end of it. j just put it rite and dont make a big deal about it . if u saw half the crap i hav-e to put rite on a weekly basis u would be on happy pills