Job, cumbria

[Richard.]

There is a world of difference between discrimination and suitability.
One is an unfair judgement based purely on what you see hear and think and is unacceptable.
The other is determining the business needs and a fair discription of the type of person required to forfill those needs.
You must have a degree to be a dr. Is this discrimination against people without degrees.
You can't be a scafolder if your scared of heights!!
Been part of a young team is not saying the person must be young it's saying the team is new or members already within the team are young but certain levels of fitness are required for different jobs. Like Paul said if your fit and capable of throwing steel about age is irrelivent.
Loyal. Well it's one of those things that works both ways and will only come in time. I'm very loyal to my company I've been there 4 years now because they are very loyal to me. It's not always the case and it's difficult to be loyal in a firm that isn't on the ball with staff but in that case it's time to move on. Again no discrimination problems with such a word.
I think some people read things then make there own mind up about what things say rather than reading what's actually said.

 

[Mee]

Don't I know that one Richard?

 

[Mee]

In actual fact Welderpaul is wrong and Mr Fuzzy is right and case law reinforces this.

What Welderpaul says is common sense but common sense has gone out of the window due to organisations such as the EU introducing their great social experiment and legislating against anything and everything instead of allowing experienced people to make a common sense decision.

 

[Omniata]

Don't I know that one Richard?

That statement is all fair and well Mee, and my apologies for jumping on the "flaming" bandwagon before, BUT, you have made lots of outrageous statements and claims with no evidence as proof, or photos to back them up.
For fear of this thread turning into yet another "inferno", PLEASE post some pictures of the kit, or cars, you claim to own and prove the disbelievers wrong...
CumbriaSteve or RobotStar provided you the opportunity to do so in another thread that got closed for the same reason...

 

[CornishPete]

If the job was in a nursery and the ad said working with children, that would not imply that that the nursery want to employ children so why would anyone think working with a young team would imply the candidate needs to be young? Another case of making something out of nothing. Why is it that how something is intended to come across is outweighed by how some people take it?

 

[ukracer]

Do you want me to throw positive discrimination in .... some people think that's fair.

The reality is I would much prefer an employer to say to me I don't want anyone over 20 stone (whatever their reason) as they are just going to waste my time going for an interview.

 

[Mee]

Good point CP but unfortunately for many people its about making a few quid, easy money.

 

[ukracer]

Good point CP but unfortunately for many people its about making a few quid, easy money.

Confused???

 

[Rig Pig]

Long commute for you

There really is no wonder the UK is on its **** is there. The world has gone far far too soft.

I think on my next job advert i'll word it in a really wishy washy way to avoid all possibility of upsetting some soft soaper under a stone somewhere and end up with employee after employee who isn't right for the job, has an accident, makes a claim, gets paid out blah blah blah.

You need to get a stack of these forms printed ASAP for your workforce!

 

[tlovatt]

If you get the chance to argue that in court on a discrimination charge...let me know, I'll be interested to see how many seconds the judge/magistrate etc lets you run that idea....

Here's an idea...try giving ACAS a bell in the morning...I think your in for a massive wake up call, a really massive one.

My opinion for what it is worth. You would end up in a tribunal not a court and the argument (in the unlikely event it got there) could be made to objectively justify the advert on the basis that you are setting out the factual basis of the teams composition so that people are aware of the likely skills needed i.e. the ability to work with less experienced staff and that coaching / training of the staff will be a day to day requirement.

There is too much fear and myth around discrimination law and what can or can not be done. If you had 2 equal candidates you could not make a selection based upon prohibited factors, if you were looking for a young, gay, ethnic minority female but the best candidate is an old white guy then (unless you can objectively justify a reason why the other person is more suited to the role) you hire the guy, even if that means 00% of your workforce are old white males.

Setting out the working environment is fine, but making a selection for a less qualified / suitable candidate based upon prohibited criteria is not.

 

[Ton-up]

What a load of bllocks. There's nothing wrong with saying you have a young team working for you and you need to be loyal.
To much pop ???

 

[CornishPete]

Setting out the working environment is fine, but making a selection for a less qualified / suitable candidate based upon prohibited criteria is not.

That's not our local councils policy, or at least it didn't used to be - their job adverts had a footnote claiming they were an equal opportunities employer but "applicants from under represented minorities are particularly welcomed" whatever that means

 

[addjunkie]

Right folks.....i posted this to try to help some one with welding / fabrication skills find a job in the Penrith area, not to have an indepth debate on discrimiation law. This debate is a prime example of why this once great country of ours is in the mess its in. And another prime example of why small buisness dont expand....it is all utter ********.

 

[tlovatt]

That's not our local councils policy, or at least it didn't used to be - their job adverts had a footnote claiming they were an equal opportunities employer but "applicants from under represented minorities are particularly welcomed" whatever that means

It meas exactly what is says, they are an equal opportunities employer i.e. they will not discriminate on prohibited grounds.

Case Law from the ECJ:
Abrahamsson and Anderson v Fogelqvist (case C407/98) [2000] ERC I-5339 - A less qualified candidate may not be favoured over a more qualified one even if the less qualified candidate is suitably qualified and the difference is not substantial

Kalanke v Freie Handestadt Bremen (case C450/93) [1990] ECR I-3051 - Where candidates are equally qualified there can not be an automatic favouring of the under represented sex (or other characteristic)

Hellmut Marschall v Nordrhein-Westfalen (case C-409/95) [1997] ECR I-6363 - Where candidates are equally qualified there can be a rebuttable presumption of awarding to the under represented sex but the other candidate must be given the chance to highlight their qualities and why they should be given the job.

The law is clear, you can not favour a less qualified candidate. Its the same as H&S - too many 'consultants' who do not know what they are doing spreading fear and causing businesses a lot of problems that should never exist.

 

[tlovatt]

Where in that ad does it remotely show any possible favour towards anyone???
It doesn't. It describes the type of person needed to be able to perform that job.
Im very anti discrimination but I don't go looking for things that ain't there to start waving a stick around.
Some people love the chance to jump on the box and shout about the law and pop in there quoted passages, but what exactly are you quoting for?
Because it says "to join a young team" or "loyal".
Seriously!!!!!! Come down off the box, put the stick away and stop reading into stuff that ain't there.

You have got me confused, I am saying I do not see anything wrong with the advert and I would have no problem saying the same thing in an advert I put out. I am also pointing out that you are not allowed positive discrimination in the EU.

 

[Richard.]

You have got me confused, I am saying I do not see anything wrong with the advert and I would have no problem saying the same thing in an advert I put out. I am also pointing out that you are not allowed positive discrimination in the EU.

Appologises. I've removed it
I completely read your post wrong.

 

[ukracer]

Setting out the working environment is fine, but making a selection for a less qualified / suitable candidate based upon prohibited criteria is not.

Sorry but that is simply not true.

Advertising based upon prohibited criterion is preventable but proving what you said is not easy. You do not have to employ the most qualified person.

 

[ukracer]

Right folks.....i posted this to try to help some one with welding / fabrication skills find a job in the Penrith area, not to have an indepth debate on discrimiation law. This debate is a prime example of why this once great country of ours is in the mess its in. And another prime example of why small buisness dont expand....it is all utter ********.

You have killed two birds with one stone. However you view it your post might well assist a person in penrith finding work. Discussing the advert could also persuade someone who looked at it and thought I am not young enough to apply.

 

[ukracer]

It meas exactly what is says, they are an equal opportunities employer i.e. they will not discriminate on prohibited grounds.

All this is find on paper but we all know what really happens and the very limited chances of challenging it. Even less chance of knowing the facts anyway.

 

[500e]

Am I glad I no longer employ anyone.
Have had 2 Co do some work in the last few months both were 2\4 person now down to the boss was told by both not worth the hassle employing what with PAYE, holidays, maternity leave, sickys, the hassle of getting rid of someone not preforming with the attending problems