Hydraulic press

[BrokenBiker]

So im bored and have nothing i can do except think about what tools I want.

I want a press, but now having the forge (and also having designed a coke forge for welding heat) i want a press like a blacksmith would use...the type that is quick to operate both up and down, likely operated by a foot pedal.

Am I right in thinking this is just a double acting hydraulic pump with a decent sized reservoir, and a cylinder ported for both directions?

Am I also right in thinking the speed of the ram is determined by the flow rate of the pump, and the force applied by the press is related to the surface area of the piston in the cylinder and the pressure available from the pump?

I'm never going to have a power hammer, but good quick press will come in handy

 

[zzr1200]

So im bored and have nothing i can do except think about what tools I want.

I want a press, but now having the forge (and also having designed a coke forge for welding heat) i want a press like a blacksmith would use...the type that is quick to operate both up and down, likely operated by a foot pedal.

Am I right in thinking this is just a double acting hydraulic pump with a decent sized reservoir, and a cylinder ported for both directions?

Your better off with an electric motor/pump unit and a double acting valve with a double double acting ram. A hand operated valve is better, depending on tonnage available.

Most mains electric powered (415v) systems work on up to 4000/5000psi.

You can use a porta power air powered pump system, but this operates at up to 10,000psi.

For higher tonnage use a larger diameter ram.


Pressure/Ram Calculator

 

[BrokenBiker]

Your better off with an electric motor/pump unit and a double acting valve with a double double acting ram. A hand operated valve is better, depending on tonnage available.

Most mains electric powered (415v) systems work on up to 4000/5000psi.

You can use a porta power air powered pump system, but this operates at up to 10,000psi.

For higher tonnage use a larger diameter ram.


Pressure/Ram Calculator

ok that makes sense.

im looking for something in the region of 20/30 ton so will start looking for the various bits needed. id prefer electric so im not constantly running the compressor, its only small and will have other things to do as well so electric seems to be a better option for me.

ive got the steel sorted, main construction will be heavy C channel with and adjustable lower shelf on 25mm en16 pins, and then the ram will act on another full width sliding shelf that tooling can attach to...i may even use 2 rams. will be similar to the generic bottle jack type presses available but much stronger.

im also devising a foldable gantry hoist based of a 13500lb winch and a snatch block but that needs some thinking about as ill need to be abdle to adjust the width and heght to either be used in the shed, or outside...

i also need ot lift the roof height of the shed by around 150mm as ive come to realise my back isnt being helped by having to crouch in the shed becasue if the low roof, but i think that is as simple as pulling all the screws that hold the roof to the walls, lifting 1 side at a time and dropping a spacer in, then screwing abck together and sealing. alsom then means i can make a taller press and hoist

 

[zzr1200]

Enerpac would be my choice but even a s/hand unit would cost more than this.
Also it's only a single acting pump unit:-

750W 70MPa Electric Driven Hydraulic Pump 10000 PSI Pedal Solenoid Valve Control - AliExpress 15

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

 

[sako243]

You're going to need a very powerful setup if you want it fast.

I picked up these shear grab rams locally and for next to nothing.

With 80lpm that's about a 10s cycle time but 80lpm is the main hydraulic pump on my JCB which has a 65hp engine behind it.

You are correct in your understanding of flow being speed and pressure / area being tonnage. 6" rams would give you about 36t at 200 bar. If you want fast cycle times then you'll need high flow (10s to extend and retract requires about 80lpm as above and that's a hefty pump - it's what the JCB has to power all it's hydraulics). For example the largest 3 phase power pack that Flow Fit do is 14lpm @ 5.5kW 415V so you're more quadrupling the cycle time. Another option might be a two stage pump like on log splitters that is high flow low pressure to take the slack and then once the pressure builds changes over to a low flow high pressure one.

You can mess about with the numbers on this calculator to get a feel for what you need.

Hydraulic Cylinder Calculator - LC Hydraulics

Our hydraulic cylinder calculator is intended to provide guidance as to the various functional properties of a given hydraulic cylinder, such as force, volume and speed.

www.lchydraulics.co.uk

 

[finyuk2005]

You're going to need a very powerful setup if you want it fast.

I picked up these shear grab rams locally and for next to nothing.
View attachment 512483
With 80lpm that's about a 10s cycle time but 80lpm is the main hydraulic pump on my JCB which has a 65hp engine behind it.

You are correct in your understanding of flow being speed and pressure / area being tonnage. 6" rams would give you about 36t at 200 bar. If you want fast cycle times then you'll need high flow (10s to extend and retract requires about 80lpm as above and that's a hefty pump - it's what the JCB has to power all it's hydraulics). For example the largest 3 phase power pack that Flow Fit do is 14lpm @ 5.5kW 415V so you're more quadrupling the cycle time. Another option might be a two stage pump like on log splitters that is high flow low pressure to take the slack and then once the pressure builds changes over to a low flow high pressure one.

You can mess about with the numbers on this calculator to get a feel for what you need.

Hydraulic Cylinder Calculator - LC Hydraulics

Our hydraulic cylinder calculator is intended to provide guidance as to the various functional properties of a given hydraulic cylinder, such as force, volume and speed.

www.lchydraulics.co.uk

what are you planning to make with those rams?
We have a few old knackered shear grabs on the farm with nice beefy rams! I just need to come up with a good use for them

 

[sako243]

Log splitter with one probably. @fizzy was asking why on earth I needed a 30/40t ram for that when his 8t one did almost everything. My aim is that for 2ft rounds etc., I'll have a 5+ way splitter so that a single stroke will split large logs into sensible sizes. He then countered that it would be slow but I countered that I only have 3 hydraulic pumps, one on the JCB at 80lpm and the other two are PTO pumps on the back of the 6x6 and Defender so they're not exactly small little mains ones.

Other one not sure yet.

 

[northwest]

what are you planning to make with those rams?
We have a few old knackered shear grabs on the farm with nice beefy rams! I just need to come up with a good use for them

Well, I have a couple and with the rams themselves I don't know but I do know they will be good "stuff" so come in useful. The Actual bodies of the rams, well they look awfully like Cannons to me!

 

[zzr1200]

Another source of options/possibilities starting points

Cheffins Machinery & Vintage Auctions

cheffins.auctionmarts.com

 

[BrokenBiker]

cheers for the info, a bit more complicated than i was initially expecting, but its definitely something i want so a way will be found

now thinkng about it...speed may not be the end of the world as im not going to need to go full travel for every use...especially with hot metal as i can pre set it close, then its just say an inch before contact, back up til til clears, move the metal then back down again.

speed when pressing bearings and the likes isnt an issue at all...

i think power/pressing force may be more important as long as i have 'enough' travel speed to be effective.

ill play with some numbers while im laid up.

for the first time in my life im actually in a positon to plan things properly now and develop a game plan that will not only maximise the efficiency of the shed but also minimise the chance of my ending up with another back injury

first things first i need to finish the table i started tuesday. then i need to raise the shed roof, which needs the table as i plan on buying some 50x50x3 angle and some 50x3 flat...2 lengths per side of the shed of angle with the flat welded between will give me 150mm of extra height meaning i can stand up straight in the shed. after that, stands for the forge, anvil, swage block and chop saw, a folding/collapsing gantry hoist then finally a nice little stand for a 3d printer and think my little shed is as full as it needs to be unless i can find a way to shoehorn a small mill in there.

 

[hotponyshoes]

A Hydraulic press for forging hot metal will be painfully slow.

Even a large power hammer with huge tonnage must be doing 30bpm.
I'd guess the small 3-4lb ones like most one-man users own are running around 300bpm.
With those you mainly use the weight of the 'hammer'to do the work.
The frame just needs to hold it in place and lift it up.

With a hydraulic you need the frame to be much heavier both to prevent it opening and to prevent skew if you are trying to forge any sort of shape other than flat.

Hydraulic is great for other uses but not (imho) great for shaping hot metal.

No reason you couldn't make up a frame that could do multiple jobs though?
Make the main section and table then attach different heads to it as needed. Power hammer, Hydraulic ram, Pneumatic ram, air hammer, kango breaker, broach press etc..

 

[BrokenBiker]

A Hydraulic press for forging hot metal will be painfully slow.

Even a large power hammer with huge tonnage must be doing 30bpm.
I'd guess the small 3-4lb ones like most one-man users own are running around 300bpm.
With those you mainly use the weight of the 'hammer'to do the work.
The frame just needs to hold it in place and lift it up.

With a hydraulic you need the frame to be much heavier both to prevent it opening and to prevent skew if you are trying to forge any sort of shape other than flat.

Hydraulic is great for other uses but not (imho) great for shaping hot metal.

No reason you couldn't make up a frame that could do multiple jobs though?
Make the main section and table then attach different heads to it as needed. Power hammer, Hydraulic ram, Pneumatic ram, air hammer, kango breaker, broach press etc..

im more concerned with forge welding in the press. im never going to have space for a power hammer, even a small one, but ive seen a lot of videos now using a press to forge weld damascus and maybe drawing out larger billets with some rounding dies such as taking a damascus block down to knife blank or chiusel blank sizes. id still be doing main shaping work with a hammer

when i mentioned speed i meant more speed of getting the dies down to the steel rahter than speed of drawing the metal out which i realise now is worded to be more confusing than it needed to be.

so basically, my brief encounter of blacksmithing before my back became a traitor had me hooked, so ive drawn up a bottom blowing coke forge in cad to be made up when im up to it for forge welding temps and then will likely use the gas forge for when i have things to make that dont require any welding, and the press is going to be a tool to aid with forge welding welding and possibly working larger things like hammers and so on to rough out a shape before finishing with a hammer, or drawing thicker pieces out that would take an age with a hammer. all still very new to it though, but having time to think means time for wild ideas

 

[zzr1200]

My minimum would be 20 ton ram, 8 to 10 inches of stoke. The main problem with most presses is they are not wide enough.

My presses frame is about 26 inches wide inside, but would be nice if it could be 36 inches.

When I was an apprentice there was an old 50 ton 2 speed manual Churchill Press , it was the dogs dodars for commercial vehicles the only thing it need was a sliding ram..

 

[BrokenBiker]

My minimum would be 20 ton ram, 8 to 10 inches of stoke. The main problem with most presses is they are not wide enough.

My presses frame is about 26 inches wide inside, but would be nice if it could be 36 inches.

When I was an apprentice there was an old 50 ton 2 speed manual Churchill Press , it was the dogs dodars for commercial vehicles the only thing it need was a sliding ram..

i havent measured my available space yet as need the table finished to move my tool boxes under it, but i estimate i will have approx 1.5 meters width to play with, and around a meter depth before i start impeding on other things. unless i place it at an angle in the corner of the shed, then it may take up less of a foot print, but give sloghtly more depth behind for the working area. i dont do anything heavy vehicle realted anymore so tha largest thing id need to press a bush out of would be a car lower arm, maybe if things got really bad trailing arms off a 4x4...be nice to hav e apress brake type folder'bender and maybe a few punch tools.

 

[gaz1]

are you sure on the power hammer

 

[BrokenBiker]

are you sure on the power hammer

You didn't need to show me that