How many fire extinguishers?

[MCKDAVID]

The only suitable gaseous extinguishant would be CO2, there are calculations under the standards for unenclosed areas usually used for things like industrial fryers. With CO2 you need 43%by volume in an enclosed space like a switch room, leakage can be allowed for with a simple dalculation based on the size of openings. But with the volumes involved and the asphixiant risks, youould require some kind of interlocking system to stop it going off when manned. Or you could adopt a manual only system like ships have, where multiple actions need to be completed to drop the gas.

agreed, and fire protection is along side my usual profession, HVAC and fire protection go hand in hand, so know the craic regarding calculations, pressure and concentration level requirements.. However this old shed, would like trying to presurise Wembley stadium.. forget it, more holes than a political manifesto...

As you said the better (more viable) option would be sprinklers / water mist. It might happen eventually, easy enough to do, and I've been considering it for a while, dry sprinkler pipework installed through out piped to a solenoid on the mains water incomer, a total electrical shutdown (supply feeder is external) from a confirmed fire signal from any two out of three smoke or heat detectors (already installed) then from the same signal to a timed automatic release via the solenoid, overide key switch to manual during the day (to avoid any spurious release), switch to automatic out of hours. We'll see, would be a good project.. not that I don't have enough already eh !!

 

[Robotstar5]

We use a product called Inergen to protect some areas, supposed to be a Halon replacement.

 

[Cyberprog]

You can also use a foaming sprinkler system as well if you have containment issues - often used in aircraft hangers as it's fairly non-damaging - massive volume very quick...

 

[jimbo84]

You can also use a foaming sprinkler system as well if you have containment issues - often used in aircraft hangers as it's fairly non-damaging - massive volume very quick...

Reminds me of a scene from Mutiny On The Buses.

 

[DAPPH]

In my Men's Shed group I tried to get the local fire brigade safety officer to come along and give us a fire safety check as we didn't know what the requirements would be for a rented building to which the public has access that we were also using as our Men's Shed workshop Room & another room for small repairs of cycles , lawn mowers , strimmers , small engines etc.
" Not my problem " ,was the answer by the time I'd reached three or four tiers up in to the heirachy of the fire services , "We don't do that sort of thing . You will need to have to pay for a certified fire safety officer to come along and survey your property" . I then spent a few days trying to locate the said qualified fire safety officer .. None seem to be qualified not even the people who advise the county council on such matters for hospitals , schools & public buildings .

Found one selling fire extinguishes and recycled refilled ones on line who said that they would come if we paid £650 plus VAT . But he was not a qualified fire safety officer .

Found someone in the county council with a BA in community development who had recently done a 20 minute course...……………. watching a YouTube video on how to identify a fire extinguisher and discover when it was in need of replacing .. they were then appointed as a building fire safety officer … they hadn't a clue as to anything other than how to make up a buildings fire equipment check log in & how to promogulate a daily signing in and out log out for visitors & members using Excel & giving the pages sequential numbers so they were in effect legal documents .

I gave up.. typed them a letter ( kept a signed copy ) got them to sign several copies . It said it was beyond my capability to survey the place for fire safety and health & safety requirements at todays standards as I've been retired for 32 years and am not conversant with the up to date legislation needed for such things .



Thankfully I no longer play in that Men's Shed for as their Secretary I would have been liable for all manner of things had there been a death or serious injury due to frailty , incompetent or mentally inept people trying to use machinery, misuse of machinery & power tools , injuries occasioned during construction , chemical injuries or a fire . When I saw what the public liability insurance covered and what it didn't I tried to get the guys to understand that we would be very limited in what we could do & that all conditions in the document must be met otherwise we'd not be covered and would all have to shoulder liability of things .

 

[fizzy]

In my Men's Shed group I tried to get the local fire brigade safety officer to come along and give us a fire safety check as we didn't know what the requirements would be for a rented building to which the public has access that we were also using as our Men's Shed workshop Room & another room for small repairs of cycles , lawn mowers , strimmers , small engines etc.
" Not my problem " ,was the answer by the time I'd reached three or four tiers up in to the heirachy of the fire services , "We don't do that sort of thing . You will need to have to pay for a certified fire safety officer to come along and survey your property" . I then spent a few days trying to locate the said qualified fire safety officer .. None seem to be qualified not even the people who advise the county council on such matters for hospitals , schools & public buildings .

Found one selling fire extinguishes and recycled refilled ones on line who said that they would come if we paid £650 plus VAT . But he was not a qualified fire safety officer .

Found someone in the county council with a BA in community development who had recently done a 20 minute course...……………. watching a YouTube video on how to identify a fire extinguisher and discover when it was in need of replacing .. they were then appointed as a building fire safety officer … they hadn't a clue as to anything other than how to make up a buildings fire equipment check log in & how to promogulate a daily signing in and out log out for visitors & members using Excel & giving the pages sequential numbers so they were in effect legal documents .

I gave up.. typed them a letter ( kept a signed copy ) got them to sign several copies . It said it was beyond my capability to survey the place for fire safety and health & safety requirements at todays standards as I've been retired for 32 years and am not conversant with the up to date legislation needed for such things .



Thankfully I no longer play in that Men's Shed for as their Secretary I would have been liable for all manner of things had there been a death or serious injury due to frailty , incompetent or mentally inept people trying to use machinery, misuse of machinery & power tools , injuries occasioned during construction , chemical injuries or a fire . When I saw what the public liability insurance covered and what it didn't I tried to get the guys to understand that we would be very limited in what we could do & that all conditions in the document must be met otherwise we'd not be covered and would all have to shoulder liability of things .

The whole thing is a farce. These days they send you a tick box safety sheet.
As long as you tick all the boxes you are fine.
There was a nasty hotel fire in Cornwall a few years ago - a few people died. Only fire checks were on paper. The fire brigade response was also awful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penhallow_Hotel_fire

 

[The_Yellow_Ardvark]

The whole thing is a farce. These days they send you a tick box safety sheet.
As long as you tick all the boxes you are fine.
There was a nasty hotel fire in Cornwall a few years ago - a few people died. Only fire checks were on paper. The fire brigade response was also awful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penhallow_Hotel_fire

There is a lot more to that than what is available in the web.

Same with the Weston supper mare pier fire.

Those who do know about are advised not to speak publicly about incidents, until matters are cleared up.

 

[The_Yellow_Ardvark]

@DAPPH

Drop me a PM and I will point and advise you a good route.

Also.
Hello fellow shed head.

 

[Parm]

In my Men's Shed group I tried to get the local fire brigade safety officer to come along and give us a fire safety check as we didn't know what the requirements would be for a rented building to which the public has access that we were also using as our Men's Shed workshop Room & another room for small repairs of cycles , lawn mowers , strimmers , small engines etc.
" Not my problem " ,was the answer by the time I'd reached three or four tiers up in to the heirachy of the fire services , "We don't do that sort of thing . You will need to have to pay for a certified fire safety officer to come along and survey your property" . I then spent a few days trying to locate the said qualified fire safety officer .. None seem to be qualified not even the people who advise the county council on such matters for hospitals , schools & public buildings .

Found one selling fire extinguishes and recycled refilled ones on line who said that they would come if we paid £650 plus VAT . But he was not a qualified fire safety officer .

Found someone in the county council with a BA in community development who had recently done a 20 minute course...……………. watching a YouTube video on how to identify a fire extinguisher and discover when it was in need of replacing .. they were then appointed as a building fire safety officer … they hadn't a clue as to anything other than how to make up a buildings fire equipment check log in & how to promogulate a daily signing in and out log out for visitors & members using Excel & giving the pages sequential numbers so they were in effect legal documents .

I gave up.. typed them a letter ( kept a signed copy ) got them to sign several copies . It said it was beyond my capability to survey the place for fire safety and health & safety requirements at todays standards as I've been retired for 32 years and am not conversant with the up to date legislation needed for such things .



Thankfully I no longer play in that Men's Shed for as their Secretary I would have been liable for all manner of things had there been a death or serious injury due to frailty , incompetent or mentally inept people trying to use machinery, misuse of machinery & power tools , injuries occasioned during construction , chemical injuries or a fire . When I saw what the public liability insurance covered and what it didn't I tried to get the guys to understand that we would be very limited in what we could do & that all conditions in the document must be met otherwise we'd not be covered and would all have to shoulder liability of things .

The fire service no longer offer fire safety checks. Since the introduction of the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order a few years ago, its is the responsibility of the duty holder to appoint an appropriately qualified person to undertake a fire risk assessment. This competent person must know what they are doing particularly where there are dangerous process, members of the public or sleeping risk (Hotels). Getting it wrong is not taken lightly

 

[The_Yellow_Ardvark]

The fire service no longer offer fire safety checks. Since the introduction of the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order a few years ago, its is the responsibility of the duty holder to appoint an appropriately qualified person to undertake a fire risk assessment. This competent person must know what they are doing particularly where there are dangerous process, members of the public or sleeping risk (Hotels). Getting it wrong is not taken lightly

Same reason why the Fire service will no longer reset fire alarms, replace Break glass elements.

Very few now with do fire extinguisher training, sorry @Parm due to H&S issues.

They will supply smoke detectors, but they are the 9v units.

Fire risk assessments are a double edge sword.

 

[fizzy]

And this is the problem - I am sure experienced people from the fire service have far more of a clue than others.
Has anyone noticed that if a business owner gets it wrong they are fined and prosecuted. When the civil service get it wrong they are offered more training...................

 

[addjunkie]

We use a product called Inergen to protect some areas, supposed to be a Halon replacement.

Not one Im familiar with, but Tyco are big players in the market. Having said that with the 12.5% oxygen level in the atmosphere, if your in there wouldnt do you much good. You normally breathe roughly 21%.

As for finding "competent persons" its actually not as easy as you think, in many matters. For example, planners told me I had to have my barn conversion surveyed to check to structural suitability. But planner couldnt tell me what qualifications or experience the person writing the survey report required. Suspect fire safety will be very similar, I know one guy who works as a fire safety engineer, whos only qualfication is in supervisory managment! Then again I used to write specs for fire supression systems for a large fire protection company, before I migrated offshore, many years ago!

 

[Robotstar5]

Not one Im familiar with, but Tyco are big players in the market. Having said that with the 12.5% oxygen level in the atmosphere, if your in there wouldnt do you much good. You normally breathe roughly 21%.

There shouldn't be anyone in the protected areas, one example is our rolling road test cells, if we need to go into the pit underneath, the works fire service comes out, isolates it and signs off our permit to work before we can enter.

 

[addjunkie]

There shouldn't be anyone in the protected areas, one example is our rolling road test cells, if we need to go into the pit underneath, the works fire service comes out, isolates it and signs off our permit to work before we can enter.

Thats more or less what used to happen with co2 systems, castell interlocking systems to isolate them for switch rooms etc. The old Halon 1301, you didnt need all that. Almost 30 years ago I dropped the halon in a room when I was commissioning the system, whoops sorry can we have 3 new bottles please. And Im sat here typing on here!

 

[Parm]

And this is the problem - I am sure experienced people from the fire service have far more of a clue than others.
Has anyone noticed that if a business owner gets it wrong they are fined and prosecuted. When the civil service get it wrong they are offered more training...................

There are very specific rules about civil service.

The Crown can not be prosecuted.

But there are other ways of taking enforcement action. I’m in the middle of taking some action now, although it’s not related to anything fire

 

[Robotstar5]

Thats more or less what used to happen with co2 systems, castell interlocking systems to isolate them for switch rooms etc. The old Halon 1301, you didnt need all that. Almost 30 years ago I dropped the halon in a room when I was commissioning the system, whoops sorry can we have 3 new bottles please. And Im sat here typing on here!

We had CO2 in the substations at Rover, every Monday we went in to read the meters so had to lock off the system in a side room before going in. One day an apprentice was sent to do the readings, but hadn't been paying attention to the entry process, he remembered he had to make the system safe so decided to press the big button marked "DISCHARGE" , within seconds a cold white cloud was billowing out of the door vents across the production lines, all the workers sensibly legged it and production was held up for a while.

 

[Parm]

There shouldn't be anyone in the protected areas, one example is our rolling road test cells, if we need to go into the pit underneath, the works fire service comes out, isolates it and signs off our permit to work before we can enter.

But you work for a big organisation where “generally” things are done properly

 

[Parm]

We had CO2 in the substations at Rover, every Monday we went in to read the meters so had to lock off the system in a side room before going in. One day an apprentice was sent to do the readings, but hadn't been paying attention to the entry process, he remembered he had to make the system safe so decided to press the big button marked "DISCHARGE" , within seconds a cold white cloud was billowing out of the door vents across the production lines, all the workers sensibly legged it and production was held up for a while.

How long did it take to thaw him out

 

[Parm]

I don’t actually know what the point of the OP post was but in our special way, lots has been said.

One thing I’ll add s that it’s sometimes more dangerous to use the wrong type of extinguisher than doing nothing at all

 

[addjunkie]

We had CO2 in the substations at Rover, every Monday we went in to read the meters so had to lock off the system in a side room before going in. One day an apprentice was sent to do the readings, but hadn't been paying attention to the entry process, he remembered he had to make the system safe so decided to press the big button marked "DISCHARGE" , within seconds a cold white cloud was billowing out of the door vents across the production lines, all the workers sensibly legged it and production was held up for a while.

Least it fired, live testing has its place, the big button I once pressed on a gas turbine enclosure to fire the " foam water mist" in anger after being asked to investigate white smoke commining out of the top of it, and nothing happened except the alarms going off. System didnt fire. Machine a (25mw RB211 industrial derivative), kept running. I pressed emergency stop button and shut fuel valves and went to muster. On later investigation there had been a small diesel fire, and it transpired that the test procedures, on that machine must have never been completed properly, one wire wasnt connected in a remote jb

I find these diverging discussions quite informative as it gives an insight into how things are done else where.