Hard brake line advice

[Jim881]

Good morning all,

I am currently restoring my celica gen 7 https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/celica-gen-7-restoration.119623/page-5#post-2446710 and have noticed the rear caliper hose fittings & pipe are in a bad way. When the time comes I might need to make section.

I know brake pipes on Japanese cars have double flared ends & require a convex inner seat union to seal against.

So my shopping list is :
3/16 Copper Nickel Pipe
Sealey VS0350 Pipe cutter
An inline brake pipe flaring tool that can do both SAE bubble & inverted flare. (Recommendations please as I will be cutting my original steel one as well)
2 x bubble flare unions.
6 x fittings (M10 x 1mm) but can they all be the same? Sorry if that sounds a stupid question, but i am unsure if i need specific ones for the 4 bubble & 2 double.

Any tips & advice on where and what to buy would be appreciated.

 

[Wozzaaah]

Any reason not to replace the entire length to save you having to join steel to cupro/nickel? Steel pipes can be a pain to flare properly in situ.

 

[Jim881]

They are huge mate....

 

[Wozzaaah]

They are huge mate....

View attachment 451808

You’ve already got them off the car though! If they were that difficult to get off I could understand you may want to cut and join them but if they’re already off just make new ones and be done with it. Such a simple job. Give me a few minutes and I’d have new ones bent by hand perfectly with no tools, ready to clip into place.
A pet hate of mine is sloppily made brake pipes, no excuse for not making them look good.

 

[Jim881]

You’ve already got them off the car though! If they were that difficult to get off I could understand you may want to cut and join them but if they’re already off just make new ones and be done with it. Such a simple job. Give me a few minutes and I’d have new ones bent by hand perfectly with no tools, ready to clip into place.
A pet hate of mine is sloppily made brake pipes, no excuse for not making them look good.

These aren't mine mate. Mine are still fitted unfortunately.

 

[sparkysy]

Any reason not to replace the entire length to save you having to join steel to cupro/nickel? Steel pipes can be a pain to flare properly in situ.

That they are indeed, had to do some on my van in situ and it took me 4 attempts before I got a decent flare!
I was lucky as I borrowed all the kit from a mate to do it, think it was a Sykes flare tool.

 

[Wozzaaah]

That they are indeed, had to do some on my van in situ and it took me 4 attempts before I got a decent flare!
I was lucky as I borrowed all the kit from a mate to do it, think it was a Sykes flare tool.

Those hand-held flaring kits really aren’t up to flaring steel pipes in situ. I had no choice when I did the pipes on my L200 as they were totally inaccessible but I remember it being a pig of a job.

 

[Wozzaaah]

These aren't mine mate. Mine are still fitted unfortunately.

All I can say then, is good luck!

 

[jrwhalley]

A recommendation for the Mastercool hydraulic flaring tool set... a bit pricey, but hands down the best, most consistent, and complete flaring set-up I've ever used. Running around USD$330 currently, but can flare pretty much anything 1/2 in.-13 mm and under. Single, double, bubble flares, push to connect fuel, AT, A/C connections and the hydraulic ram is fairly low effort so you aren't likely to kink or fracture the sketchy line you're trying to splice. This was the GM factory tool that has been around for at least 40 years that I'm aware of. Vevor appears to be selling a Chinese copy for under USD$200, but the quality control is spotty regarding fit of dies.
Info: https://mastercool.com/product/72485-universal-hydraulic-flaring-tool-set/

 

[sparkysy]

Those hand-held flaring kits really aren’t up to flaring steel pipes in situ. I had no choice when I did the pipes on my L200 as they were totally inaccessible but I remember it being a pig of a job.

They definitely are not, but needs must, and like yours mine was in a tight spot, the only other option was to drain and remove the fuel tank to replace the whole line. Really are a pig of a job to do in situ!

I also say good luck to @Jim881

 

[Jim881]

A recommendation for the Mastercool hydraulic flaring tool set... a bit pricey, but hands down the best, most consistent, and complete flaring set-up I've ever used. Running around USD$330 currently, but can flare pretty much anything 1/2 in.-13 mm and under. Single, double, bubble flares, push to connect fuel, AT, A/C connections and the hydraulic ram is fairly low effort so you aren't likely to kink or fracture the sketchy line you're trying to splice. This was the GM factory tool that has been around for at least 40 years that I'm aware of. Vevor appears to be selling a Chinese copy for under USD$200, but the quality control is spotty regarding fit of dies.
Info: https://mastercool.com/product/72485-universal-hydraulic-flaring-tool-set/

A bit out of my price range mate. I've seen this which seem to be ok for inline work. https://capritools.com/shop/3-16-double-flaring-tool-kit/

Can you shed any light on one of my questions?

"6 x fittings (M10 x 1mm) but can they all be the same? Sorry if that sounds a stupid question, but i am unsure if i need specific ones for the 4 bubble & 2 double."

Regards Jim

 

[MetalMonkey]

If you are restoring the car. replacing or remaking all of the brake pipes in cupro nickel is pretty much standard.
Patching and joining is something that is a temporary MOT fix on a runabout in my book.
Steel ones don’t last for ever, and it’s not a job you want to be redoing in a few years so do it right once, first time.

You can just about get away with one of those cheap block and clamp flaring tools, but they are difficult to use and inconsistent at best.
There are the “on-vehicle” brake flaring tools with the handle which are a step up. I’ve personally had issues with them stripping out after a couple of flares, but some people have had good success with them.

The best options are going to be either the Sykes Flaremaster or the vice mounted Sykes 270 series flaring kit. They are pricey, but they are top notch and just work.
The 270 style has been cloned by quite few companies and is available under lots of different brands and while not cheap, they are a lot more affordable and going to give a lot better results than those cheap generic clamp style ones.

Another option would be to remove your old pipes and take them to a local garage who can remake them for you.
However, I suspect they will still need some “massaging” to get them to fit as it is difficult to get a good fit without the vehicle.

 

[Nomad]

Easiest option I always found was to remove a complete pipe (cut into manageable lengths if needed) and use that to make a replacement - if part of your pipe has started to go I'd not want to keep any part of it ... Edit: I always use copper based pipe (cupro-nickel?), easy to work with and lasts well.

I've renewed all pipes on a handful of cars using a basic Machne Mart Clarke set that does single & double flare.
A mate has a car repair workshop, his commercail kit is vice mounted and a lot nicer to use than my kit but for occasional use mine works well.

Clarke CHT172 Automotive Pipe Flaring Kit - Machine Mart

www.machinemart.co.uk

Use new end fittings is you can get them but I've re-used original fittings if I can't find new. Always run a drill through old fittings to clean any burrs before you refit them.

You'll also need a pipe cutter, I have a micro size (6-22mm) and it fits neatly in the box with the pipe flaring kit

Rothenberger MiniCut Pro 2 6-22mm Manual Copper Pipe Cutter - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. With small working radius, suitable for 6-22mm copper tube. Recessed rollers for cutting near to flares. FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 1 minute.

www.screwfix.com

A micro pipe bender is also handy but you can do without

Rothenberger Lever Pipe Bender 6, 8 & 10mm - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. Compact precision bender with integral bending guide. FREE next day delivery available, free collection in 1 minute.

www.screwfix.com

 

[MetalMonkey]

"6 x fittings (M10 x 1mm) but can they all be the same? Sorry if that sounds a stupid question, but i am unsure if i need specific ones for the 4 bubble & 2 double."

Obviously you have to match the flare type to the part it is connecting to.
Best thing to do is inspect the existing pipe when you remove it to determine which type of flare is required, difficult to advise unless you are familiar with the specific vehicle.

However, there are a couple of types of brake nuts commonly used - those with an unthreaded "nose" and those threaded all the way to the end.
This catches a lot of people out, so make sure you have the correct ones.

I do prefer to use brass or stainless now for fittings as the steel ones do tend to twist the end of the copper pipes off when undoing them if they get badly corroded.

 

[Jim881]

Obviously you have to match the flare type to the part it is connecting to.
Best thing to do is inspect the existing pipe when you remove it to determine which type of flare is required, difficult to advise unless you are familiar with the specific vehicle.

However, there are a couple of types of brake nuts commonly used - those with an unthreaded "nose" and those threaded all the way to the end.
This catches a lot of people out, so make sure you have the correct ones.

I do prefer to use brass or stainless now for fittings as the steel ones do tend to twist the end of the copper pipes off when undoing them if they get badly corroded.

I know I'll be making 4 bubble flares and have a matching unions. the brake hose end is doubled flared.

On further inspection it looks like I will need an unthreaded end for for the brake hose.

 

[frank horton]

pig of a job ....yes but once done it's forever.......
becides u can retap all the threads around the fuel tank etc and replace with st/steel.....that always looks smart....
infact I make my own furrels now from 316 then the with copper pipe looks quit proff.....
really worth the effort

 

[Pete.]

If you gotta double-flare steel pipe in place you could get it in the clamp then hit it with a torch gently right before you flare it. No need to get it glowing just warm it up and it'll flare much more readily.

 

[8ob]

Bit on brake pipe joining here

mot - joins on brake pipe?

id like to redo my brake pipes , like alot of cars they had a massive pre bent up pipe go on before the engine and axle etc , i could make a nicer job if i had one or two joins are proper joiners frowned on or no bother ?

www.mig-welding.co.uk

Bob

 

[JohnH]

I use one of these when doing on car stuff

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282619615626?itmmeta=01HZCE2D2M2PQN64G408X5901C&hash=item41cd71198a:g:PIQAAOSw569lHWTk&itmprp=enc:AQAJAAAA4OtJJ9yd--eCP015grGNV9r36Yd+Ct86jDGDdAbPh0r7mGQCQHJWQS76KvG84tNvpH/6yIGbSExZmv7rLeTdfIi2r8owxyRb8JlyOTLvjtwFzjf5dCXGfhmlSqQQaDcMSd+1t8GVPvZnAwHe0wq1bRFrlqUbOSBbrHz5Kyx1HXl5X3E2nIK7no40K9eZi+9lnEG6qPz3GGocNPQfLTaK9Dz7cfJ21ifv1VEVSxCo1M7QRT0B1Czt+NMxNxi7Wq3v4/LEtpU8STSR6eKlhBYT6wkqm6LwsBXIrgwgj5fE0B+1|tkp:BFBMttGJjvtj

Its an ISO tool and suitible for all European cars built since about 1970. I would think that the Japanese would also use it.

The fittings were supplied by Sealey as per the packets top left.

 

[Hotstuff]

I love a bit of brake line installation.

I replaced all of the lines on my MK1 Vitara and it’s really satisfying.

I would recommend getting a brake line straightening tool if you like a kink free finish.