Domestic air source and cold callers

[gaz1]

We hardly have any nuclear left that's the problem!. What picks up the slack? Gas. Gas power stations are expected to just "switch on" hence why our bills were so high when gas prices shot up. Many people - and the politicians- actually seem to believe we can go 100% renewables and use batteries to pick up the slack for 10 days in Winter with no wind. Never going to happen! Germany also seems to think they can go all out for renewables when in fact, instead of gas, they burn loads of filthy lignite instead.
If we want to be serious about cutting CO2 we need to stop burning fossil fuels and go all out for more nuclear like France. People like Putin and the Arabs can't hold a gun to our heads then either.

theyve gone for household incineration generators instead thats pumping loads of crap

 

[Kayos]

Renewables can be disconnected almost instantaneously - turn off solar farms - and/or in a very short time (seconds) wind farms. Wind farms arev,even now, forced to stop generation when the grid system cannot cope with the incoming power levels local to the grid connection (mostly off-shore wind farms). Most hydro is reduced in the off-peak periods to fill behind the generator for maximum output at peak periods.

There are too many not looking at the over-all picture. Running the National Grid on an hourly basis would actually open the eyes (slightly?) for all these posters who think electricity generation is simple.

At last, somebody speaking sense!

Electricity generation, load and demand balancing is incredibly difficult

If it was easy, we would be on 88% renewables already (the nuclear baseload is 12%)

 

[fizzy]

Renewables can be disconnected almost instantaneously - turn off solar farms - and/or in a very short time (seconds) wind farms. Wind farms arev,even now, forced to stop generation when the grid system cannot cope with the incoming power levels local to the grid connection (mostly off-shore wind farms). Most hydro is reduced in the off-peak periods to fill behind the generator for maximum output at peak periods.

There are too many not looking at the over-all picture. Running the National Grid on an hourly basis would actually open the eyes (slightly?) for all these posters who think electricity generation is simple.

Turning them off is easy. But what happens when we have hardly any wind or solar for a few days?
Gas powerstations have to fire up and shut down. It is costing millions in extra wear and tear as they are not designed to operate that way. Several gas powerstations went bust as they are expected to operate in this manner. The ones still open charge a massive amount to run when needed.
We have replaced a stable base load with a very intermittent one which is not good.

 

[minimutly]

At last, somebody speaking sense!

Electricity generation, load and demand balancing is incredibly difficult

If it was easy, we would be on 88% renewables already (the nuclear baseload is 12%)

You should add distribution to that - most generation is a long way from where it’s needed, and pretty much all new generation will be too..

 

[fizzy]

You should add distribution to that - most generation is a long way from where it’s needed, and pretty much all new generation will be too..

Hence the ugly new pylons they wat to build through our national parks

 

[gaz1]

The local tip was producing 3MW from metane 50 years ago - and still flaring off methane at the same time, i expect it is producing a lot more electricitynthese days. Reducing plastic scrap is one facet and other human rubbish is basically down to the population size. Do work out the logistics, and real reasons, before making silly claims about responsible incineration processes.

as goes for waste take your head out if the sand, waste incineration is not being responsible

taken from the above video electric generation

plastic use /landfill hypocrite's?

Re plastic straws,i priced some components for a paper straw making machine 2 years ago,don’t know what became of it ,though I’ve had them in my drink from independent cafes ,were at least 17 miles from the nearest McDonald’s,thank god.

www.mig-welding.co.uk

so lets ban wood stoves as there producing co2

https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/homemade-wood-coal-burners-might-be-banned.88211/

the truth of the matter is waste incineration is causing the co2 lets blame something else as its not regulated

 

[gaz1]

ive been looking down the sand battery route for heat storage as its far superior to water heat storage

its 4m wide x 7m high sand we have plenty of it

Sand Battery

The Sand Battery is a large-scale, high-temperature thermal energy storage system that uses sand or similar materials as its storage medium. It enables our clients to meet their climate goals while…

polarnightenergy.fi

now i can use solar electricity to send heat into the sand and use the old brick heaters to supply it as well

sand batterys can hold heat for months compared to water

now i know i can get 2000f out of a rocket stove well over 4 hrs worth of that type of heat

for cooling down in summer all i have to do is create a water tunnel to get nice cool air into the property

 

[fizzy]

ive been looking down the sand battery route for heat storage as its far superior to water heat storage

its 4m wide x 7m high sand we have plenty of it

Sand Battery

The Sand Battery is a large-scale, high-temperature thermal energy storage system that uses sand or similar materials as its storage medium. It enables our clients to meet their climate goals while…

polarnightenergy.fi

now i can use solar electricity to send heat into the sand and use the old brick heaters to supply it as well

sand batterys can hold heat for months compared to water

now i know i can get 2000f out of a rocket stove well over 4 hrs worth of that type of heat

for cooling down in summer all i have to do is create a water tunnel to get nice cool air into the property

Good idea but will needs some serious insulation - unless you put it inside the house

 

[fizzy]

Here we go again! Gas fired piwer stations are not particularly affected by stop-starts - all it costsnis the warming-up time. It is the BASE LOAD stations that are designed for continuous operation - particularly nuclear, and to a fair extent, coal fired operations.

It is why gas fired stations are often referred to as “peakers’.

The Sun has been shining for about 4 1/2 billion years. Solar generation will be taking place somewhere on the globe 24 hours a day. More and more interconnectors will be installed around the globe.

Get used to it. Nuclear cannot operate - except as base load. Coal is only about 42% efficient, at best. Combined cycle gas stations are likely over 60% efficient.

Yes, build more hinkley points and export surplus power? OK until nobody wants it - and then what to do?

These are the conundrums that have to be solved. China and France already own most of hinkly point C. We don’t actually mine any nuclear furl, either.

People have ‘bees in their bonnets’ about their fixed, little understanding of energy generation and distribution.

The simple fact is that renewable energy is the cheapest and least polluting for the foreseeable future. Things may change (eventual fusion reactors?) but until then we need to harness as much non-poluting energy as possible.

They are now pulling out of wind power! The companies put in the ultra low priced bids have admitted they can't operate at that cost. Higher interest rates has made them less viable.

Giant windfarm off Norfolk coast halted due to spiralling costs

Swedish energy giant Vattenfall says costs have climbed 40% due to rise in global gas prices

www.theguardian.com

They bid £37.35 per MWh which all the wind enthusiasts jumped at saying "look how cheap wind is"

Long inter connectors are stupidly expensive and it is a fallacy to say it is always windy somewhere. An area of high pressure can sit over the whole of Europe and create low wind conditions for up to 2 weeks at a time. Conversely when it is very windy EVERYONE has too much wind power so nobody wants to buy it. Same goes for solar.

Interconnectors mean we end up paying through the nose for power - last year to avoid a blackout in London National Grid paid £9724 per MWh.
Also this year National grid were PAYING countries to take our excess power at £550 per MWh. This was due to us having too much wind and solar - but so did the countries we wanted to sell it to!
It is lunacy - and people wonder why we pay more for electricity than other countries.
No wonder manufacturers won't come to Britain!

And just ask people who work at gas fired powerstations how much damage and wear and tear is being caused by the way they now have to run!
You are obviously unaware of the fiasco that happened at the Baglan Bay powerstation and the effect it had on local businesses.

 

[gaz1]

You missed my point? Methane to CO2 is the eventual conversion in the atmosphere. But, meanwhile, methane is a far more effective green-house gaz than carbon dioxide. Plastic waste needs to go somewher, so what would youndo with a filthy greatnpile of plastic waste? Think about it, and come up with a better answer?

turn the plastic into another use

but its cheaper to burn it

methane can be burnt but as cows make enough of it anyway its a double edge sword there is alternatives however the banks dont want to loan to it as its not a quick payback same with the landfill power generation from methane

alot of food can go down a digester including industrial ones but that all depends on collection of the material

Good idea but will needs some serious insulation - unless you put it inside the house

Reported R-values for straw bale walls range from R-17 to R-54, depending on the test procedure, the type of straw used and the type

 

[minimutly]

ive been looking down the sand battery route for heat storage as its far superior to water heat storage

its 4m wide x 7m high sand we have plenty of it

Sand Battery

The Sand Battery is a large-scale, high-temperature thermal energy storage system that uses sand or similar materials as its storage medium. It enables our clients to meet their climate goals while…

polarnightenergy.fi

now i can use solar electricity to send heat into the sand and use the old brick heaters to supply it as well

sand batterys can hold heat for months compared to water

now i know i can get 2000f out of a rocket stove well over 4 hrs worth of that type of heat

for cooling down in summer all i have to do is create a water tunnel to get nice cool air into the property

So why does it hold heat longer than water?

 

[gaz1]

its the boiling point of water

compared to the likes of solar water or solar oil even sand which has a higher rating of

once you hit the boiling point you cant add more heat to the fluid so best to be below boiling point

 

[fizzy]

So why does it hold heat longer than water?

More mass I assume and they are designed to operate at 600C apparently.
A storage heater basically.

 

[minimutly]

More mass I assume and they are designed to operate at 600C apparently.
A storage heater basically.

Weellll, the higher the temperature the more leakage you will have?
Hmmm, perhaps were I building a new house I might put a big sump in the middle, insulate it well and put a sand tank in there... certainly solves the problem of my solar panels controller switching off due to the tank temperature stat. How big would it need to be to store into the winter for a domestic house? Anyone done the maths?

 

[fizzy]

Weellll, the higher the temperature the more leakage you will have?
Hmmm, perhaps were I building a new house I might put a big sump in the middle, insulate it well and put a sand tank in there... certainly solves the problem of my solar panels controller switching off due to the tank temperature stat. How big would it need to be to store into the winter for a domestic house? Anyone done the maths?

Do you live above a mine shaft? Huge I should imagine

 

[gaz1]

Weellll, the higher the temperature the more leakage you will have?
Hmmm, perhaps were I building a new house I might put a big sump in the middle, insulate it well and put a sand tank in there... certainly solves the problem of my solar panels controller switching off due to the tank temperature stat. How big would it need to be to store into the winter for a domestic house? Anyone done the maths?

its not down to leakage its down to how much heat you would loose per day

hot water cylinders and solar cylinders loose a percentage over a day so when at higher temps its going to be days/months before your below the boiling temps of water depending on usage of coarse

whilst on the other hand you can also extra charge it by using the electric side of solar to top it up during the winter months

as long as you have a decent sized garden the sand solar unit is possible even if you was going to part submerge it there is other tech that can provide adequate insulation

chimney fire cement foam similar to firebrick up your chimney and other insulation properties in other materials its choosing the best that will last for 50 years +

even ground bore holing wont reach the temps of the sand battery or even the heated coils in the ground

we cant have a bore hole as there is mines in the area so alternatives must be used instead as we have the garden

 

[minimutly]

its not down to leakage its down to how much heat you would loose per day

Yes, heat leakage....

hot water cylinders and solar cylinders loose a percentage over a day so when at higher temps its going to be days/months before your below the boiling temps of water depending on usage of coarse

whilst on the other hand you can also extra charge it by using the electric side of solar to top it up during the winter months

What solar diring the winter months? Like 10% of normal summer output?

as long as you have a decent sized garden the sand solar unit is possible even if you was going to part submerge it there is other tech that can provide adequate insulation

chimney fire cement foam similar to firebrick up your chimney and other insulation properties in other materials its choosing the best that will last for 50 years +

even ground bore holing wont reach the temps of the sand battery or even the heated coils in the ground

we cant have a bore hole as there is mines in the area so alternatives must be used instead as we have the garden

View attachment 409963

So where's the maths? How big etc?

 

[gaz1]

ive already provided you with a direct link to the info its not a model its already in use

as goes for the size of it ive also shown it

it also explains its usage and its charge cycles

as goes for what it supplies read up on it as its a small complex city it supplies with a good amount of buildings and a swimming pool and thats just on a read up
after that you could go searching on the test location and review some more

but like ive said ive taken a good look into this tech due to its high heat absorbsion and its storage time of months water cannot store heat as needs top ups often solar oil has a higher ratio of heat absorbsion so you can heat store that oil at a higher temperature itself

now i know water storage heat loss time

Most hot water cylinder manufacturers suggest that the water will lose between 1 kWh and 2.5 kWh of heat per day.

53c ( 127.4f )the temp drop per day is 8 degrees 45c you can make it less with more insulation

just so you know

i know rocket stoves can output 1000f in a simple format build but can reach over 2000f+ downdraft stoves also reach 2000f

 

[aesmith]

Back to hear pumps for a second, since it sounds like there are some from the industry commenting. Round here they're promoting air source. Are there any figures for how well these perform when heating is most needed, in cold weather? For example last December outside air temperature went down to -16 Deg C. One day the higher temperature was -7. In other years we've had a February where it didn't go above zero for a whole month.

Without really knowing, I doubt that you're going to get a COP of 4 when the source air is at that sort of temperature.

 

[brewdexta]

In theory you can extract energy form something all the way down to absolute zero at -273c but I guess the COP may not be so good

I believe heat pumps are basicaly just refrigeration units in reverse, if so this suggests they will work down to -22c same as your freezer does. However if they used different freons and other design changes, maybe lower than that. I guess it is diminishing returns.

All I know is that my brothers farm and holiday lets uses both ground and air source heat pumps and they are pleased with them and they live on the North York moors which can be a wee bit nippy at times

They moved out of the farmhouse recently, their daughter moved in with hubby and kids. They moved into a recent conversion of a newer farm building on their farm, so probably high levels of insulation and it uses UFH.

The air sound heat pump on this buildings keeps it well toasty, my SiL likes it warm. So much so that it split a wooden coffee table I made them. Another repair I need to get around too...

So the key is probably lots of insulation and a properly designed system.