Dog poison antifreeze

[prepman]

Ironically I've worked for 2 companies (humco) and another that hydrogenated oils. The first made margarine, Humco (Kraft who now own Cadburys) and the latter fats for lotions and tarmac adhesive. Same hydrogenation process. Heat, high pressure (200 bar- ish), nickel catalyst and hydrogen. They made a few accidental rockets also

 

[Ross365]

Same hydrogenation process. Heat, high pressure (200 bar- ish), nickel catalyst and hydrogen. They made a few accidental rockets also

And don't forget the scale of the operation. It's one thing to do 200 bar on a small scale, but food products generally don't do small scale.

 

[prepman]

And don't forget the scale of the operation. It's one thing to do 200 bar on a small scale, but food products generally don't do small scale.

Small scale?

 

[prepman]

I doubt the screen wash had ethylene glycol in it...

Ethylene Glycol Antifreeze BAD....
Ethylene Glycol is a poison, 30ml can be fatal for an adult, 4-5ml can kill a dog and 1-2ml can kill a cat. It is sweet tasting, an Asian woman in the UK, has been procectuted for killing her husband by adding it to his curry!
0.5-1.0% in engine oil can cause failure to engine bearings. Automatic gearboxes fail when shared coolant radiators fail, allowing minor contamination of transmission fluids. Mercedes and VW dealerships are issued with test kits to find Ethylene Glycol in oils, to fight warranty claims. It also damages some of the new types of waterbased paintwork systems.
It stops water in engines freezing, it raises the boiling point of coolant and contains inhibiters to stop internal corrosion of engines.
It is classed as hazardous waste.

Propylene Glycol Antifreeze GOOD....
Propylene Glycol has one extra carbon atom in its chemical structure, but it has a very lower toxicity level. So low it is used in food, pharmaceuticals and cosmetics.
It freezes at the same temperature as the toxic alternative. It does not damage engine, gearbox bearings or waterbased paintwork.
It also stops water in engines freezing, it raises the boiling point of coolant and contains inhibiters to stop internal corrosion of engines.


The effects of poisoning Ethylene Glycol take 12-36 hours. Symptoms of Ethylene Glycol poisoning are in this order, central nervous system failure, changes in metabolic processes and kidney failure. The central nervous system is affected early in the course of poisoning and the affected indervidual may look drunk & intoxicated. One antidote for Ethylene Glycol poisoning is Ethanol (Ethyl Alcohol). Ethanol is a competitive inhibitor of ADH. Ethanol acts by competing with Ethylene Glycol for alcohol dehydrogenase. Doctors normally precribe pharmaceutical grade Ethanol by injection as a 5-10% solution with 5% dextrose in water, but it can be given orally in the form of a strong spirit such as whisky, vodka or gin. Alcohol dehydrogenase has about a 100 times greater affinity for Ethanol than for Ethylene Glycol; Ethanol therapy saturates the enzyme, inhibiting further ethylene glycol metabolism thus limiting the formation of toxic metabolites. The other method of treatment is Haemodialysis but you are going to need a specialist hospital for this.

Sorry about the loss of the dog!

Thanks...
It turns out that it wasn't the screenwash with an ethanol low concentration. What I later did suspect was an antifreeze container with very little in it, that had fallen over in little stone building with an open doorway. I saw him lapping something up in there when it is was torrential rain. Usually the old door is propped shut. I keep all my oils and solvents in there. None of which would be attractive to an animal. Except the antifreeze. So I've been mortified that I've killed my best friend of the last 9 years.
Being more dry-eyed and clear thinking I got the container and read back. Would Bitrex have stopped him? The vet thinks it was natural heart failure, but I wasn't so covinced. Just the shear energy he had prior. If it was another source of poisoning it raise sinister feelings.
PS The avatar is my previous seafaring dog...euthanised at 16yrs. Was rescued along with me by lifeboat crew one time. A saint of a dog. But my 1st and one before him was the dog from hell....and just to rub it in euthanised at 17yrs whilst trying to bite the vet.

 

[PhillipM]

Bittering agents are just a dissuader, they won't always stop dogs/kids, etc. It still smells sweet. Even with bittering agent it still has a sweet aftertaste - I've done enough bleeding via a tube to find that one out over the years.

 

[Guineafowl]

Eth glycol poisoning gives fairly characteristic blood and urine results. After the initial staggering, unwell, vomiting phase it progresses to kidney failure.

Heart disease is usually pretty distinctive, and not really confused with the above.

As for malicious poisoning, the substances used are often identifiable. What poisons might be used around where you live?

 

[awemawson]

My biggest issue is my age. Getting another dog is easy when your 30 or so.... on the rebound. But at 73 he was going to see me out. I reckoned on being 81 when he shuffled off (if he was first). So total f'up. Getting pacemaker soon so I'll live forever . But no Benji.

Same age as you and have lost a very good friend a couple of weeks ago - Hugo my 9 year old Vizsla - were were very close - still have the other Vizsla but she is more my wifes dog than mine.

I'd have another puppy at the drop of a hat despite my antiquity but the wife refuses. Have to be a male Vizsla, and although adopting sounds fine in principle I've heard of so many rescue dogs that have caused issues I'd not do it unless I knew the entire story to why it's in a rescue situation.

 

[prepman]

Bittering agents are just a dissuader, they won't always stop dogs/kids, etc. It still smells sweet. Even with bittering agent it still has a sweet aftertaste - I've done enough bleeding via a tube to find that one out over the years.

Hmm so it's possible it got him? I feel bad about it but would feel worse if it were unkown. We use rat/mouse poison in the loft in bait boxes. Have to. But poisons stored well out of harms way.

 

[prepman]

Eth glycol poisoning gives fairly characteristic blood and urine results. After the initial staggering, unwell, vomiting phase it progresses to kidney failure.

Heart disease is usually pretty distinctive, and not really confused with the above.

As for malicious poisoning, the substances used are often identifiable. What poisons might be used around where you live?

Thing is why we suspected something happening on the Sunday, but glycol poisoning is delayed so that might have be the 1st bout. He seemed to perk up and then crashed out. 2 days later dead.
Even it wasn't your dog it was heartbreaking to see the obvious suffering and feel so helpless.
No trace of poison according to vet. But it wouldn't be there days later? Just the damage?
Liver and kidney also heart diagnosed damaged.

 

[Guineafowl]

After a day or two, the glycol will be gone. The liver converts it to the toxic substances which cause renal failure.

Other poisons aren’t really tested for unless specified. You look for a particular ‘fingerprint’ amongst the normal results if there is a suspicion of a particular poison.

With a possible antifreeze case, one thing to do is get a urine sample under the microscope. Among the other things, you get quite characteristic oxalate crystals:

If you’ve found a possible source of antifreeze, then I’d say it raises the suspicion somewhat. However, it’s not certain in this case and I wouldn’t spend too much time churning it over. You gave him a good life.

 

[voipio]

I feel your pain prepman. You may never find out with certainty what caused the problem. Time is a great healer. Enjoy the memories of the good times.

 

[prepman]

After a day or two, the glycol will be gone. The liver converts it to the toxic substances which cause renal failure.

Other poisons aren’t really tested for unless specified. You look for a particular ‘fingerprint’ amongst the normal results if there is a suspicion of a particular poison.

With a possible antifreeze case, one thing to do is get a urine sample under the microscope. Among the other things, you get quite characteristic oxalate crystals:
View attachment 389316

If you’ve found a possible source of antifreeze, then I’d say it raises the suspicion somewhat. However, it’s not certain in this case and I wouldn’t spend too much time churning it over. You gave him a good life.

Vet did check for crystals. None found. But much longer after the possible accident (if at all).
Problem now ...my missus never wanted a dog. My kids did. So against my wishes we got the first puppy. I worked away and long hours when home. The dog ended up a pschyo. Next dog 2yro like the first was given to us. Missus had softened a bit and he was the best dog in the world. Loved by all. Except postman. When he went at 13yrs...6 weeks later I forced the issue to get another dog, a puppy. I was retired with plenty of time. But he was definitely my dog. Wife tolerated him then fell for him after time. Wife didn't grow up with dogs I never can remember when there wasn't one. So there's the rub. Daughters (both) are dog lovers. Strange when they grew up with problem pschyo one. They think I should get another. They are very tying. Although mine had a passport (Rabies jabbed) ready for travelling then Brexit/Covid/Health and too much beaucracy.
So it isn't straight forward.

 

[prepman]

The very last thing is, after talking to vet and memory recall, it is pretty certain that it was the glycol antifreeze that killed him...slowly. My carelessness killed my dog, so a double whammy.
But on reflection the container should not have leaked. The cap was on tight. Tested the container with water and cap dripped. It says store upright but even so?
Doesn't help but gives me closure.
Didn't realise just how nasty this stuff is and just how little is toxic. How is it disposed of in bulk? Does it biodegrade or stay in the environment forever?

 

[voipio]

Closure is therapeutic.

According to Wikipedia, "ethylele glycol...breaks down in air in about 10 days and in water or soil in a few weeks." Not sure that the statement is completely true taken at face value, as that means it would degrade in the container very quickly during storage, and in vehicle cooling systems, too, and it clearly doesn't. However, in the general environment, there is air, UV, and "surfaces", which may act collectively to catalyse its breakdown. The environmental risks community seem to be of the opinion that ethylene glycol isn't a problem, toxicity wise. See e.g:

Fate, effects and potential environmental risks of ethylene glycol: a review - PubMed

The fate, effects, and potential environmental risks of ethylene glycol (EG) in the environment were examined. EG undergoes rapid biodegradation in aerobic and anaerobic environments (approximately 100% removal of EG within 24 h to 28 days). In air, EG reacts with photo-chemically produced...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Ross365]

Didn't realise just how nasty this stuff is and just how little is toxic. How is it disposed of in bulk? Does it biodegrade or stay in the environment forever?

Ethylene glycol (EG) antifreeze has been in use for 50 or 60 years; the internet is full of info. If you say that it is "nasty", then you'd have to say what else could be used that is less nasty, and I'm not at all sure what that would be. I think it is very rare that it causes a problem, except when deliberately used to kill cats.
I dispose of mine by taking it to the the local authority collection centre. Considering how much material the water companies are allowed to discharge in the rivers and the sea from our combined sewer and drainage system, if all DIY mechanics were pouring it down the toilet, that would be a bad thing. Also, used antifreeze is not just ethylene glycol; it contains corrosion inhibitors and some dissolved metals, so is likely to be more toxic than EG alone.

 

[PhillipM]

Some of the modern more advanced antifreezes use propylene glycol now instead anyway. More expensive and needs high concentrations, but much, much less toxic and easier to dispose of.

 

[premmington]

Some of the modern more advanced antifreezes use propylene glycol now instead anyway. More expensive and needs high concentrations, but much, much less toxic and easier to dispose of.

+1 for the above

Propylene Glycol is used in food, pharmaceuticals and cosmetics.

 

[voipio]

Propylene glycol is also used in vaping mixtures, for users that want a bit of a "throat hit".

 

[Ross365]

I think it had escaped me that propylene glycol is being used as car antifreeze. That said, I cannot find any info on the net that that either Honda or Toyota (my two cars) have approved it or are offering it. If the info is there, it's not prominent. I didn't check other makes.

The selection of an antifreeze is already an issue, even limiting the choice to the EG ones. There some very different corrosion inhibitors in use which are incompatible with each other. Until the car makers are selling propylene glycol and have approved it specific models, I'll stick with the EG products, kept on a high shelf in a locked garden shed.

 

[brightspark]

Propylene glycol is also used in vaping mixtures, for users that want a bit of a "throat hit".

idiots