Cheap car

[snowcat]

If there was no road tax and insurance companies weren't so awkward about insuring more than one car as I mentioned above I for one would get a little runaround and just use the Volvo for fetching & carrying and long journies.

Im just the same I have a laden to the hilt 2.5 brava pickup, 95% of the time a fiesta Van would be more than big enouth... but Im bugged if im paying for 2 lots of tax and insurance, while we are about it wouldnt the insurance be best off belonging to the person and not the car??

 

[rtbcomp]

........, while we are about it wouldnt the insurance be best off belonging to the person and not the car??

That would be OK for third party, but could be tricky when taking the value of the car into account.

Some countries have a state insurance scheme which is included in the annual tax.

If road tax is abolished then an "insurance disc" could be issued instead. This would be carried out by the insurance companies, not the state.

 

[bill_gj]

Shenion - you need to catch up !
Have a look at Mercedes diesels with Bluetec, or the latest Ford of Europe V6 and V8 diesels. Quiet and economical, sometime half the fuel consumption of a gasoline engine with the same HP. It's a long time since the 'Oldsmobile diesel' now.

 

[malcolm]

OK, just stop me if I get too "economical", but it happens to be my trade....
The problem with the "old" economic model is......

Worries me what's going on, but everything seems to be orientated towards money - I'm sure people will convince themselves it still works in a year or so. That'll be a good time to buy shares in banking

Sorry for disagreeing Malcolm, but do you really find it a free thinking design?

Mainstream auto industry is so conservative it's amazing when something different comes along. Once in 40 years and all that.

suddenly you have disposable cars

Oh - very good point - same reason why we don't like the cheap and complex welders from eBay. Mind you, full price cars like everything else are disposable these days for much the same reasons.

Some really free thinking in this thread - love the road tax and insurance ideas. Though is it better to stick to one car and not use it so much because it is fearfuly uneconomical rather than having two or three. (Bill can have his own back here - I've got about 10).

 

[rtbcomp]

If the Tata "Peoples Car" (in German "Volkes Wagen") had a drawbar on the front it could be hitched up to the Range Rover, towed to a carpark outside town, unhitched to do the shopping and then back to the Rangey and home.

Could nicely get round congestion charging.

 

[rtbcomp]

.......... Though is it better to stick to one car and not use it so much because it is fearfuly uneconomical rather than having two or three.

In my case I need a car to deliver stuff, I could use the small one for odd engine bit, but would need the big one for a complete scooter.

I could carry an engine casting on the bus, but would like to get the job done in a day.

 

[marknotgeorge]

Shenion - you need to catch up !
Have a look at Mercedes diesels with Bluetec, or the latest Ford of Europe V6 and V8 diesels. Quiet and economical, sometime half the fuel consumption of a gasoline engine with the same HP. It's a long time since the 'Oldsmobile diesel' now.

Yes, but aren't the latest crop of powerful diesel engines pushing the technology to the limit? I know many of them don't like cheaper diesel or vegetable oils. I'd be surprised if they last 2, 3, 400 thousand miles like the previous generation.

Me? We have seven people in our household, so we need a car with the capability to seat seven. It may hardly be used seven-up, but it's either that or use two cars. Of course, if we are seven-up, there's naff-all room for luggage.

 

[shenion]

Shenion - you need to catch up !
Have a look at Mercedes diesels with Bluetec, or the latest Ford of Europe V6 and V8 diesels. Quiet and economical, sometime half the fuel consumption of a gasoline engine with the same HP. It's a long time since the 'Oldsmobile diesel' now.

Diesels are fine for trucks, that i where the added torque is needed. Milege/HP is about the same here. They are popular for large pickups here.

I was mainly referring to small cars, gas beats them in economy.

 

[Drains]

Me? We have seven people in our household, so we need a car with the capability to seat seven. It may hardly be used seven-up, but it's either that or use two cars. Of course, if we are seven-up, there's naff-all room for luggage.

Maybe you should have two cars that can take 3 1/2 people and luggage, including a driver for each. Then you get bargain driving, except when travelling en masse, but then you can separate the arguers, so everyone gets there happy

 

[bill_gj]

Sorry Shenion.....only in the USA.
Virtually everywhere else in the world the diesel is displacing gasoline by virtue of economy and durability. Do some research.
There are engines from around 1.4 litre (about 84 cubes) to 2.5 litre that are taking up to 50% of the sales in passenger cars and with excellent economy and durability.
These are running to 5500rpm and still producing fat torque curves using variable nozzle / variable vane turbochargers. Mate these engines to a six speed manual, or auto box and they're a dream to drive.

 

[shenion]

Research, why?

They don't sell them here. Diesel is more expensive and you only see diesels offered in trucks.

Besides, we don't want the smog (particulates, ozone especially.)

 

[malcolm]

Genuine question here -

A big percentage of cars sold on mainland Europe are Diesel. Guessing about 70% of bigger engined cars without actually looking up the figures.

Diesel fuel (in the UK) is maybe 5% more expensive than petrol but miles per gallon tends to be 30% more. So cheaper to run. European diesel cars have particulate filters (similar to catalytic convertors in petrol cars in that they filter some of the nasties)

Without getting into the pros and cons (and there are some of both) I'm interested in why diesel hasn't made it to the US. Is it that much more expensive? Or is it the clean air thing? - Diesels are still worse despite the filtering.

Just interested in the US view on these things - there must be a good reason. I'm in the auto design trade in the UK. Not involved in emissions stuff but it's interesting to understand the differences in country.

 

[shenion]

Diesel is about 10% more expensive here. Some gas stations don't even carry it.

Mainly a clean air thing. The big push here is toward alternative fuels or hybrid vehicles. One reason they are not imported is they need to add additional parts to meet US emissions.

Emissions vary by state. California has one of the most restrictive emissions around. Importers do not want to make different versions for all the variances in the US.

I remember driving up I-70 in Colorado in an emissions-choked escort. 45MPH top speed. The emissions have gotten better in efficiency though.

Smog has become a huge problem. When I hike up Stone Mountain, you can see a brown haze hanging over everything.

You should see the pollen though in the spring. It forms snow drifts People complain about high pollen counts in the hundreds (classified as extreme elsewhere) We get counts above 5000.

Then there is acid rain. Most cities have mandated low-sulfur fuel to cut down the effects.

Diesel cars started in the 70's here. They proved unpopular as Detroit basically used modified gas engines. I remember a tech saying the GM diesels had a bad habit of splitting the crank between cyls 7/8. So, they got a bad rap, had poor mileage and reliability. Almost all manufacturers dropped diesel from passenger cars.

For trucks, they finally went to makers like Cummigs (sp) to get something reliable.

Gas has reached great mileage. My dad has a Corolla that gets 40+ MPG. Beats some hybrids. I have never seen a diesel advertised here that gets much more than 30 MPG.

You still see some, but they are usually expensive luxury vehicles. There are no inexpensive diesels here Joe Sixpack could afford.

 

[weldequip]

I have never seen a diesel advertised here that gets much more than 30 MPG.

You can get over 50mpg on the modern diesels over here + 150mph performance! Fantastic kit, don't know you are driving a diesel. Emissions can be lower than petrol engines aswell.
(Government has latched onto the popularity of diesels though & hiked the price of diesel over recent years making it more expensive than petrol ).
weldequip

 

[malcolm]

Got you. I've been involved in the struggle to get cars to the California emmissions standards myself - you can see why they spec those standards with the smog over the city. Though they aren't tough standards, just different. Can see diesel not helping at the moment, though it's getting close.

Reliability is fine these days - diesel is much better than petrol over here. Common to get 200,000 miles ples without trouble. For your medium size saloon petrol is 30mpg, diesel is 45mpg!

Air quality isn't such a problem over here - possibly it's because we have more wind so we blow our smog your way?

 

[shenion]

Air quality isn't such a problem over here - possibly it's because we have more wind so we blow our smog your way?

Or it just blows out to sea. The US is 2000 miles across east/west.

Also you have two major mountain ranges to deal with that cuts the country into thirds. You can see the smog sit on ons side of the Appliacians here and not go anywhere.

Better emissions with diesel? No problem. Depends on what you are measuring. Yes the CO, CO2, NO is less (and that is all that is measured) but the particulates and sulfates are not tested to pass emissions and that is what they are trying to eliminate.

 

[rtbcomp]

....... For your medium size saloon petrol is 30mpg, diesel is 45mpg!

Don't forget diesel is more dense than petrol, to get a proper comparison of efficiency and emissions you need to consider Kg/Mile or suchlike.

 

[peterd51]

Hi,

I watched or read something recently where they talked about the ban on air travel in the US (after 911, I think) and apparently the air quality over the whole US improved dramatically for those two days.

They were basically saying that aircraft caused more smog, etc, than cars.

Regards
Peter

 

[MrFluffy]

Diesel is king over here in France, not only for the reasons malc mentioned (fuel consumption, higher strength, run for more miles) but because here diesel is cheaper than petrol at the pumps per litre.
In fact its a very close run cut between lpg and diesel engines in terms of cost per mile.
My mrs's 7 seater peoplecarrier thingy is a turbodiesel ford galaxy and that returns about 50mpg, my latest landie is a 2.5tdi and thats returning about 25mpg vs 10-15mpg out of the v8 petrol rangie it replaced, and my big red van gets about 25-30mpg too although its engine is very old tech (2.5 n/a SOFIM engine). In fact the only thing petrol with 4 wheels we have left is a vw camper although thats not set in stone it wont have a diesel put in it if that flat 4 misbehaves much more.
Yes lpg is nice, and running costs are lower until the taxes rise (which they've started to already), but you cant get some in a can and top up from it, and most of the lpg kits are dual fuel systems, so you have twice the tank space and dare I say it, some of the lpg kits are a bit... basic... to say the least. My car I am building has a 4.6L petrol engine with sequential lpg injection controlled by a fuel computer though so Im not really against lpg.


On the original car, your unlikely to see it in euroland at that price because I believe it failed the NCAP testing requirements for euro homogulation, theres also new legislation that all new cars have to be fitted with anti lock brakes and other gubbins in the name of safety (landrover are sidestepping that by declaring the defender a van!), and it seemed the car didnt meet them requirements either. Its been legislated out of the market already...

 

[bill_gj]

Research, why?

They don't sell them here. Diesel is more expensive and you only see diesels offered in trucks.

Because, you're going to get them, I think, sooner rather than later.
The current wave of Euro diesel engines will meet all except latest Californian emissions specs and from what I read, meeting Cal specs is effectively happening now/this year.

Hybrids are fine, but typically cost a lot more than their gasoline or diesel engined equivalents if the manufacturer is to tturn any profit at all.
Electric vehicles have already generated pollution at the powerstation where the electricity came from and hydrogen (whether as a direct fuel or in some sort of fuel cell) has a long way to go before the general public should be allowed near it.
Methanol fuel cells may be a practical solution.
Like the Esccort you mentioned, I can also remember a trip to Arizona where I was given a Datsun 120Y, with air-con, as my daily driver and I wouldn't have wanted to do any cut and thrust driving in it. Interstate cruising was OK. But that was 20 years ago and technology has moved on, believe it or not, and 300 million plus Europeans can now use sub- 2 litre diesels that (as already mentioned by Malcom, I think) will do well over 100 mph and still return 50 mpg urban.
Apologies for the significant deviation from the OP.

By the way Tata are currently the front-runners for the purchase of Jaguar/Land Rover from Ford. I was looking at the Tata website t'other day and it looks like the only place where they don't currently have any sort of dealer representation is.....the USA.
Acquiring JLR will give them the established dealerships and, presumably, an outlet for existing Tata products in the USA, provided they meet regs, of course.
So, Americans may get the opportunity of buting The One Lakh Car, for themselves in the near future (??? )