Car not recognising keys. Oh figs!

[premmington]

It looks like the coil is built into the immobiliser control unit, and that's what's plugged into the wiring harness?
As the top looks to be clipped on, any merit or mileage taking a quick look inside, looking for dry solder joints or water/corrosion ingress, before loading the parts cannon or getting expensive with diagnostics and locksmiths?
It seems like the car is able to tell you it can't read the chip in either key, which probably means the transponders are Ok.

Quick look at a wiring diagram shows. Assuming this a 1.6 petrol variant with a vintage of 2006 - MA16A VVT engine code?

Immobilizer control module with coil reader in it - only has two wires going to it.

Pin 3 (ICM) yellow/black wire to plug A main ECU pin 28
Pin 4 (ICM) yellow/red wire to plug A main ECU pin 13

This type of ICM will come apart - they just got clips on clamshell case - you can get to the coil terminals.

----------

Key reader failure on one of these early Suzuki's is not a common problem - later keyless Swifts and the like are awful for not seeing keyless keys.

Even with a dealer scanner SDT/SDA- this a 2006 car - the best you will see on live data - is if the imo is off or on (and you already know it is off mate).


I not got the software to bypass the Imo function for a SX4 - if I did - you could have brought me the ECU and I would have dropped it out for you. I only in King's Lynn @Martin Hocking. Everybody else will have the same stuff - ImoAlice from Germany or a copy - is was the common software package in the trade at the time - but it don't cover the MA16A stuff. I doubt there is anything that will do this software wise - it would have to be done by a hard Julie emulator.

I can only do the following software wise - I have just checked - I don't get to see too many 2006 cars with imo problems now! It has been long while since I done one of these and I could not recall the application list:

Alto
Swift
Baleno
Samurai
Vitara & Grand Vitara (GM Immobiliser Type We Can Match)
Wagon R
Jimny
Liana
Denso ECUs supported including engine types - G13BB M13A M13A VVT K9K


---------

These people sell Julie pack emulators - for what I think will be your application? (Hitachi..? But don't take my word on this - get ECU out and read the label)

Emulators

shop.carlabimmo.com

Suzuki

• Denso 33920.x (93C56 EEPROM + 29F200 Flash) (Metal Cover)
• Denso 33920.x (93C56 EEPROM + 29F200 Flash) (Plastic Cover)
• Denso 33920.x (93C56 EEPROM) (Metal Cover)
• Denso 33920.x (93C56 EEPROM) (Subaru)
• Hitachi 33920.x (93LC46 EEPROM)
• Hitachi 33920.x (OKI Memory)
• Hitachi 33920.x (24C04 EEPROM)
• Hitachi 33920.x (X24C01 EEPROM)

I think they charge €150 Euro's to supply and fit a Julie emulator....?

Plus you gonna have postage either way to Poland.

It is a fixed cost - it is not loading and firing the parts cannon for repeated shots.

But I would wanna be sure I had an imo problem - before I spent any money on a 2006 Suzuki SX4.

---------

Oh in the late 90's when all this pack imo stuff was being bolted on to car control systems - the people who invented it - gave the protocols - the differing mechanisms/methods to immobilize a car - girls names - Alice - Julie - the list is endless. I know what a load of geeky/nerdy poop!

 

[Martin Hocking]

Quick look at a wiring diagram shows. Assuming this a 1.6 petrol variant with a vintage of 2006 - MA16A VVT engine code?

Immobilizer control module with coil reader in it - only has two wires going to it.

Pin 3 (ICM) yellow/black wire to plug A main ECU pin 28
Pin 4 (ICM) yellow/red wire to plug A main ECU pin 13

This type of ICM will come apart - they just got clips on clamshell case - you can get to the coil terminals.

----------

Key reader failure on one of these early Suzuki's is not a common problem - later keyless Swifts and the like are awful for not seeing keyless keys.

Even with a dealer scanner SDT/SDA- this a 2006 car - the best you will see on live data - is if the imo is off or on (and you already know it is off mate).


I not got the software to bypass the Imo function for a SX4 - if I did - you could have sent me the ECU and I would have dropped it out for you. Everybody else will have the same stuff - ImoAlice from Germany or a copy - is was the common software package in the trade at the time - but it don't cover the MA16A stuff. I doubt there is anything that will do this software wise - it would have to be done by a hard emulator.

I can only do the following:
Alto
Swift
Baleno
Samurai
Vitara & Grand Vitara (GM Immobiliser Type We Can Match)
Wagon R
Jimny
Liana
Denso ECUs supported including engine types - G13BB M13A M13A VVT K9K


---------

These people sell Julie pack emulators - for what I think will be your application? (Hitachi..? But don't take my word on this - get ECU out and read the label)

Emulators

shop.carlabimmo.com

Suzuki

• Denso 33920.x (93C56 EEPROM + 29F200 Flash) (Metal Cover)
• Denso 33920.x (93C56 EEPROM + 29F200 Flash) (Plastic Cover)
• Denso 33920.x (93C56 EEPROM) (Metal Cover)
• Denso 33920.x (93C56 EEPROM) (Subaru)
• Hitachi 33920.x (93LC46 EEPROM)
• Hitachi 33920.x (OKI Memory)
• Hitachi 33920.x (24C04 EEPROM)
• Hitachi 33920.x (X24C01 EEPROM)

I think they charge €150 Euro's to supply and fit a Julie emulator....?

Thanks premm, I really appreciate the input, and kind offer of help if you could. Another forum hero in action!

Wiring looks like it ties in with your assessment of the wiring diagram I’ve got the yellow/black yellow/red on terminals 3 and 4

The emulator thing looks like a good way to go I don’t need the immobiliser. Desmonds sheer dullness is enough to deter theft, that and the smell of pigs!

I’ll look into that tomorrow.

And because I can’t deny the common sense of @Blobber and @Gareth_16V

I’ll also try and ring and speak to someone at a dealer tomorrow. Might even need to speak to both fiat and Suzuki.


Here’s what the unit looks like inside…looks pretty okay to me, it was dark mind you.

 

[premmington]

Thanks premm, I really appreciate the input, and kind offer of help if you could. Another forum hero in action!

Wiring looks like it ties in with your assessment of the wiring diagram I’ve got the yellow/black yellow/red on terminals 3 and 4
View attachment 494425
The emulator thing looks like a good way to go I don’t need the immobiliser. Desmonds sheer dullness is enough to deter theft, that and the smell of pigs!

I’ll look into that tomorrow.

And because I can’t deny the common sense of @Blobber and @Gareth_16V

I’ll also try and ring and speak to someone at a dealer tomorrow. Might even need to speak to both fiat and Suzuki.


Here’s what the unit looks like inside…looks pretty okay to me, it was dark mind you.
View attachment 494424

@Martin Hocking

I would be inclined to deplug plug A on the ECU - ECM is behind the battery - deplug the ICM - and do a circuit wiring test - end to end for OHMs with a multimeter and one end of both circuits to earth. Not gonna cost you anything. Both plugs are easy to get to...

These are real low voltage - low current pathways - testing with a bulb for voltdrop live - or even using a insulation tester on 50v set to circuit testing - and putting some current down the wires when testing - may highlight the fault better than using a multimeter...? Multimeter on ohms uses internal battery voltage of the multimeter - 2xAA = 3v or whatever it is fitted with to measure volt drop to calculate resistance in ohms. 3v is like going to gunfight with a water pistol - for 19yr old wiring on a car.

If you found no circuit or any resistance or a leakage to earth - just severe cables at each end and chuck another wire/wires in - leave the redundant ones in the loom - it is a 2006 car - smelling of pigs...

---------

Defeating the imo - will invalidate your insurance. But this comes from the man who has - removed key chips from donor keys and superglued them inside donor key readers - then wrapped duct round keyreader to chip does not get lost and tucked them up into the dashboard - because I could not be bothered to change all the keying/door/ignition locks. Or did not want a "two key car"...

---------

Did I read the car has a name "Desmond"...?

 

[Bravheart]

Just by any chance before you go any further has anyone locked/unlocked the car with the key in the door instead of the fob buttons. It may be out of sync. Had this on a French car with a Japanese doppelganger and no way would it start walked away and by chance opened it with the key after a few no goes. Fired up first time.
Worth trying the key lock both opening and locking before pulling any more to bits.

 

[Martin Hocking]

I would be inclined to deplug plug A on the ECU - ECM is behind the battery - deplug the ICM - and do a circuit wiring test - end to end for OHMs with a multimeter and one end of both circuits to earth. Not gonna cost you anything. Both plugs are easy to get to...

Thanks premmington I will do this later tonight as you say it’s, straightforward and free.

I’ve been pondering the emulators since last night, and whilst it looks a bit spendy (especially for a crap car like this) and a bit of a faff, but it should kill the problem dead so is certainly still an option.

Love the geek facts on the immobiliser stuff being named after ladies. One thing that occurred to me about the emulator packs in general, is there a reason why they have to be mated into the ecu? Could you not have an emulator plugged in at the ignition end? Or is that too good a product for people who nick cars?

And yes the cars called Desmond all our vehicles have names. He’s a grey fiat sedici about as grandad as cars come (well almost, he’s not a Ford Fusion). When I bought it the rest of my family took the mick and said it should have a boring name. Then my mum said sedici reminded her of the Ducati moto gp bike which is a desmosedici so we ended up with ‘Desmond sedici’.
He’s been a pretty faithful friend and we’ve certainly done more green laning than most soft roaders get to do. Although it got a bit much when I almost got stuck diff deep in the woods taking my kids back from swimming in Dereham.

Anyway a bit more prodding and poking to follow…

 

[premmington]

Thanks premmington I will do this later tonight as you say it’s, straightforward and free.

I’ve been pondering the emulators since last night, and whilst it looks a bit spendy (especially for a crap car like this) and a bit of a faff, but it should kill the problem dead so is certainly still an option.

Love the geek facts on the immobiliser stuff being named after ladies. One thing that occurred to me about the emulator packs in general, is there a reason why they have to be mated into the ecu? Could you not have an emulator plugged in at the ignition end? Or is that too good a product for people who nick cars?

And yes the cars called Desmond all our vehicles have names. He’s a grey fiat sedici about as grandad as cars come (well almost, he’s not a Ford Fusion). When I bought it the rest of my family took the mick and said it should have a boring name. Then my mum said sedici reminded her of the Ducati moto gp bike which is a desmosedici so we ended up with ‘Desmond sedici’.
He’s been a pretty faithful friend and we’ve certainly done more green laning than most soft roaders get to do. Although it got a bit much when I almost got stuck diff deep in the woods taking my kids back from swimming in Dereham.

Anyway a bit more prodding and poking to follow…

Umm...

The ECU is not booting - this could be the imo is holding it off.

OR... It is not booting... and getting stuck halfway thru the "boot" and giving you imo hold off symptoms.

Boot hold is how the imo - well immobilises the car.

If you re read my previous posts - "I would wanna be sure this is a imo problem"

 

[charlysays]

Good luck. I've hacked the hell out of the immo on my fathers Merc W202. Fitted an immo emulator in the ECU which I got off AliExpress, electronic steering lock emulator (also from AliExpress) then fitted a key and electronic ignition switch set out of another car with matching part numbers. Its been running great for two years now and cost £50 to fix. All because the EIS went wrong Using Merc EIS/ key specialists it would've been uneconomical to repair. If you run into major issues hopefully you can immo off it!

 

[premmington]

Good luck. I've hacked the hell out of the immo on my fathers Merc W202. Fitted an immo emulator in the ECU which I got off AliExpress, electronic steering lock emulator (also from AliExpress) then fitted a key and electronic ignition switch set out of another car with matching part numbers. Its been running great for two years now and cost £50 to fix. All because the EIS went wrong Using Merc EIS/ key specialists it would've been uneconomical to repair. If you run into major issues hopefully you can immo off it!

Merc EIS/ESL problems when these cars "were current" - were a good earner for me...


Imo problems are a thing of the past - sort of 2007 onwards - nobody has a problem with an immobiliser now - unless they loose or damage a key.

Some people are dumb enough to have only one key for a car (heed the warning) copying keys is not cheap - but with no key the costs escalate quickly...

 

[qwakers]

i did... 2014 slk EIS failure that the repair company had never seen. actual circuit board failure.

 

[Keithmac]

Resistance test for the coil is a good start as mentioned above.

I have immobiliser faults on a few motorcycles and even with factory diagnostic tools no errors were flagged (which make the job 10 times longer to sort out).

If you pull one of these antenna loops to bits it's a very fine wire with a lot of windings. I've only replaced a handful over they years.

No resistance means there's a break in the loop (normally where the thin wires are soldered to the pcb).

 

[Martin Hocking]

Right thanks for the input everyone…

I didn’t get much time last night to do much.
I’ve got the ecu off


and will get on with testing the wires running to the immobiliser coil later on tonight.
(The pin holes are very small is it okay to use a bit of fine copper wire to plug into them or is there some other way of testing at the connector end?)



I’ve been a little wary of testing stuff in the reader coil because of this page in the manual-


But reading that again it says you can’t test it while it’s disconnected- not that you can’t test it for resistance etc at all.

I think looking back at what I’ve posted so far it would be helpful if I ran through the exact symptoms more clearly as my assumptions probably muddy the waters in the waffle I’ve written.

Problem-
Went to start car
Car fired for a brief moment (maybe a couple of cylinders worth)
Then went to winding over doing nothing
Tried second key
Still winding over not doing anything else
Immobiliser light doesn’t flash
Immobiliser light doesn’t go out when turning over
No fault codes

Taking the the coil off the ignition so it has nothing to read throws fault code p1614 and makes the immobiliser light flash (which I think is the code for not be able to read a correct key)
This goes away again when you put the coil back on the ignition or put one of the keys in the ring while turning ignition on with the other.

That’s all I’ve got so far…

 

[Martin Hocking]

Umm...

The ECU is not booting - this could be the imo is holding it off.

OR... It is not booting... and getting stuck halfway thru the "boot" and giving you imo hold off symptoms.

Boot hold is how the imo - well immobilises the car.

If you re read my previous posts - "I would wanna be sure this is a imo problem"

Very fair point, I was probably a little over enthusiastic in my assessment of the emulator, as you say it’s not going to fix the problem if the problem isn’t the immobiliser.

I have to apologise @premmington i went on your website yesterday (I can’t see the link on my phone) I hope I haven’t caused offence in my efforts for looking someone local who specialises in this sort of stuff without realising that person is you! If I’d known I would have called you after the locksmith said it wasn’t something he could do!

 

[charlysays]

Merc EIS/ESL problems when these cars "were current" - were a good earner for me...


Imo problems are a thing of the past - sort of 2007 onwards - nobody has a problem with an immobiliser now - unless they loose or damage a key.

Some people are dumb enough to have only one key for a car (heed the warning) copying keys is not cheap - but with no key the costs escalate quickly...

Really interesting!
I hope other work has filled it's place too!
The eis are a bit of a fiddle. I would probably attempt to change the micro switches on the tumbler but nothing more, seems like there are lots of really sensitive bits which don't like being reworked?!

It was a bit of a mess of a job but I kind of enjoyed it, would've loved to learn more about it all.

I initially tried swapping the motorola MCUs into another eis but realised too late that the boards were slightly different, so i then remembered in a panic that I hadn't unplugged the esl in the open position... So to save having to cut the ESL off the steering column I soldered the MCUs back into the broken eis just to unlock the esl, which it did do begrudgingly and then immediately died lol.
I was pretty careful working on those MCUs but they weren't up to being reworked twice atleast not by me.
My dad has already lost the spare key which the replacement eis came with so I have a few eis/ key sets in the drawer to swap the whole lot in if there's another issue.
I think it's quite a good reliability mod for these old mercs tbh, I've got the bits ready to do mine if it ever goes wrong even if it does make it easier to steal.
Eis with 3 keys is as little as £40 on eBay.
When I first got into w202s/w210s it was a big thing to get one with two keys, glad to have a backstreet workaround now!

 

[GRW]

Merc EIS/ESL problems when these cars "were current" - were a good earner for me...


Imo problems are a thing of the past - sort of 2007 onwards - nobody has a problem with an immobiliser now - unless they loose or damage a key.

Some people are dumb enough to have only one key for a car (heed the warning) copying keys is not cheap - but with no key the costs escalate quickly...

As a small thread hijack (sorry to OP) this post resonates with a niggling worry I've had that I need to address.
I own 2 vehicles bought with just 1 key (both Renault, 1 a 2008 Master 2.5cdti, 1 a 2011 Kangoo 1.5dci van).
My minor paranoia about losing or damaging a key.... just got escalated to DEFCON 3
I've had no luck finding non-main dealer business who can duplicate keys - so I might have to pay I'm guessing £300 a pop to Main Dealer for spare keys??

 

[jmp49]

Really interesting!
I hope other work has filled it's place too!
The eis are a bit of a fiddle. I would probably attempt to change the micro switches on the tumbler but nothing more, seems like there are lots of really sensitive bits which don't like being reworked?!

It was a bit of a mess of a job but I kind of enjoyed it, would've loved to learn more about it all.

I initially tried swapping the motorola MCUs into another eis but realised too late that the boards were slightly different, so i then remembered in a panic that I hadn't unplugged the esl in the open position... So to save having to cut the ESL off the steering column I soldered the MCUs back into the broken eis just to unlock the esl, which it did do begrudgingly and then immediately died lol.
I was pretty careful working on those MCUs but they weren't up to being reworked twice atleast not by me.
My dad has already lost the spare key which the replacement eis came with so I have a few eis/ key sets in the drawer to swap the whole lot in if there's another issue.
I think it's quite a good reliability mod for these old mercs tbh, I've got the bits ready to do mine if it ever goes wrong even if it does make it easier to steal.
Eis with 3 keys is as little as £40 on eBay.
When I first got into w202s/w210s it was a big thing to get one with two keys, glad to have a backstreet workaround now!

Could be worse, on the Merc SLK R170 I bought for my wife's birthday with 1 working key, they came factory shipped with 8 key identities programmed in, and officially if your car has had 5 replacement keys since new, you have to spend 2400 quid plus on replacement immobilizer modules ("technology refresh") because they cant be wiped or added to. Only a dealer can query Mercedes themselves to see if a car still has some keys unused, then you can pay the Dealer to get someone in Gemany to program that secret identity onto a passive in a key and send it you.

Officially that is... We'll ask the stealership if they can do this process for us and at what cost (they have to do a dump on STAR/DAS to read out the keys already stored as used in the AAM to know if your at the 8 key limit and they can rip you off more or not), but if not currently waiting for a Xprog M to arrive to do it the down and dirty way (dump the eprom out of the AAM box for the secret identities of the 8 keys, then clone one onto a blank PCF7935 immobilzer passive). Last time we went in there for a correction on the logbook around its euro category, they couldnt have been more unhelpful, so my moneys on soldering on headers onto the AAM eprom and dumping it.
I already cut a working blade onto a blank remote keyfob, just need to do the passive to let it unlock the immobilizer and start the car...


Back to martin's subject, you mention the car starts then cuts out after one or two firings. That would seem to me to suggest that the engine ecu is booting and running because its doing ignition timing and firing and cranking the car initially, but then the immobilizer inhibit kicks in and it cuts the power to the ignition. This was originally done to confuse theives because they would try multiple times thinking it was just hard to start and stand more chance of getting caught in the act, but now its expected behaviour.
Personally I would think its time to pay the dealers to plug in and at least identify what the culprit is before getting deeper into things. Unless you have data someway, your stabbing in the dark.
I'd also consider investing in a clone of the suzuki dealer software interface, and get some actual live data and diagnostics going, its going to be less than you pay for a generic obd box you plug in and nobody knows suzuki's electroncis like suzuki, although I know theres some issue requiring a extra component to do immobilizer programming because suzuki made dealerships license this as a extra and charged more for it which is why not all suzuki dealerships will do immobilizer programming, so in this specific case it might be difficult. I dont know for sure, I've never had to get down and dirty on one so never deeply researched it if you can clone and enable it another way.

 

[Martin Hocking]

Blimey! Ignorance is bliss I drove around for years in my last car with one key without a care in the after the main one went wrong* and wouldn’t register and start the car. Little did I know what a pain that could have been!
(I am that idiot… )

*which is why I’ve assumed the problem this time was key related because the symptoms are the same just both keys this time…

 

[Robotstar5]

One place I worked had a transit pickup and the regular driver always used the red key because he liked the colour, I tried explaining it was the master key and if he lost it replacement keys could not be programmed, it fell on deaf ears

 

[Martin Hocking]

…

Back to martin's subject, you mention the car starts then cuts out after one or two firings. That would seem to me to suggest that the engine ecu is booting and running because its doing ignition timing and firing and cranking the car initially, but then the immobilizer inhibit kicks in and it cuts the power to the ignition. This was originally done to confuse theives because they would try multiple times thinking it was just hard to start and stand more chance of getting caught in the act, but now its expected behaviour.
Personally I would think its time to pay the dealers to plug in and at least identify what the culprit is before getting deeper into things. Unless you have data someway, your stabbing in the dark.
I'd also consider investing in a clone of the suzuki dealer software interface, and get some actual live data and diagnostics going, its going to be less than you pay for a generic obd box you plug in and nobody knows suzuki's electroncis like suzuki, although I know theres some issue requiring a extra component to do immobilizer programming because suzuki made dealerships license this as a extra and charged more for it which is why not all suzuki dealerships will do immobilizer programming, so in this specific case it might be difficult. I dont know for sure, I've never had to get down and dirty on one so never deeply researched it if you can clone and enable it another way.

In my attempts to make it clear exactly how the problem unfolded I’ve made it more confusing I think.

It fired very very briefly when the problem started but doesn’t fire at all anymore just turns over…

I still haven’t had a chance to check the wires mentioned earlier, so I will do that first and then think about what I do next.

I’ve already spoken to the fiat dealer in Norwich earlier this week, which i know isn’t who I really need but I figured that if I start there if I have to ring Suzuki at least I can get over the first hurdle when I say it’s a fiat. Unsurprisingly they couldn’t help. I’m fairly sure the two dealerships are basically the same place. Certainly the same company.

As has already been suggested it is an almost twenty year old car, and not worth very much, so I should bear that in mind, when it comes to the lengths I go to to try and get it fixed.
Just a bit frustrating considering broadly speaking it’s in quite good shape it only had its mot and done new tyres last month.

We shall see…

 

[Martin Hocking]

What I should have also said in the post above is that I am of course incredibly grateful for all the help and input so far. Thanks everyone.

 

[premmington]

In my attempts to make it clear exactly how the problem unfolded I’ve made it more confusing I think.

It fired very very briefly when the problem started but doesn’t fire at all anymore just turns over…

I still haven’t had a chance to check the wires mentioned earlier, so I will do that first and then think about what I do next.

I’ve already spoken to the fiat dealer in Norwich earlier this week, which i know isn’t who I really need but I figured that if I start there if I have to ring Suzuki at least I can get over the first hurdle when I say it’s a fiat. Unsurprisingly they couldn’t help. I’m fairly sure the two dealerships are basically the same place. Certainly the same company.

As has already been suggested it is an almost twenty year old car, and not worth very much, so I should bear that in mind, when it comes to the lengths I go to to try and get it fixed.
Just a bit frustrating considering broadly speaking it’s in quite good shape it only had its mot and done new tyres last month.

We shall see…

"The reason they sell new cars is old ones reach end of life"....

Where in Norfolk are you..?