Car immobiliser fun

[Kram]

At parents today and they want their old car shifted, its been parked in garage since covid began and until now I havent found time to look at it. Kia Rio 2013 with 107k miles, good mechanical condition apart from this fault. They have new cars and have given this one to me, which would be quite useful if it were reliable. I have a couple weeks else I will need to scrap it.

Problem with it is the immobiliser. It started first time today but didnt last and is intermitent and will cut out. Light is on the dash showing the key has not read correctly and wont give any fuel. It turns on the starter nicely. It will fire with brake cleaner sprayed in.

Its been to main dealer and had about £600 of incompent labour spent on it last year - things like replacing the lamba and crank sensors. Cant possibly cause this . There is no fuel. 100% electrical somewhere between the key chip and ecu.

Plan to check the immobiler unit, key reader and all related wiring. Any ideas?

I dont have an OBD2 diagnostics tool, not that it will be much help, but any recommendations? Bluetooth type to use on phone preferably.

 

[qwakers]

would help to know what car it is....

 

[Bobupndown]

Says its a Kia Rio in the post

 

[Kram]

Thanks @qwakers I missed that out, edited.

 

[qwakers]

you're not going to be able to diagnose it without a decent diagnostic tool. not a £15 cheap obd2 reader, a proper diagnostic tool, one that can tell you whether the immobiliser is recognising the key, weather the ecus can talk to each other, weather the fuel pump is being commanded on, etc etc.

 

[decca]

At parents today and they want their old car shifted, its been parked in garage since covid began and until now I havent found time to look at it. Kia Rio 2013 with 107k miles, good mechanical condition apart from this fault. They have new cars and have given this one to me, which would be quite useful if it were reliable. I have a couple weeks else I will need to scrap it.

Problem with it is the immobiliser. It started first time today but didnt last and is intermitent and will cut out. Light is on the dash showing the key has not read correctly and wont give any fuel. It turns on the starter nicely. It will fire with brake cleaner sprayed in.

Its been to main dealer and had about £600 of incompent labour spent on it last year - things like replacing the lamba and crank sensors. Cant possibly cause this . There is no fuel. 100% electrical somewhere between the key chip and ecu.

Plan to check the immobiler unit, key reader and all related wiring. Any ideas?

I dont have an OBD2 diagnostics tool, not that it will be much help, but any recommendations? Bluetooth type to use on phone preferably.

Had the same problem with a Hyundai i10. I googled the fix and it was the connector that goes from the reader ring on the ignition switch. On the i10 it’s located on the steering column behind the cover. Simply unplug it and tighten up the connections a bit I didn’t replace the ring as this sorted it.
Its a well known issue if you google it.

IMMOBILISER, KEY, PROBLEMS

I have a kia rio 2002,it has been going ok, since I bought it second hand, but lately, when I turn the key in the ignition, the immobiliser light goes out, the car turns over, but will not start. I broke down in Bristol, and the RAC guy, got it going after a dozen tries, and still does not know...

www.kiaownersclub.co.uk

 

[Ubique]

Had the same problem with a Hyundai i10. I googled the fix and it was the connector that goes from the reader ring on the ignition switch. On the i10 it’s located on the steering column behind the cover. Simply unplug it and tighten up the connections a bit I didn’t replace the ring as this sorted it.
Its a well known issue if you google it.

IMMOBILISER, KEY, PROBLEMS

I have a kia rio 2002,it has been going ok, since I bought it second hand, but lately, when I turn the key in the ignition, the immobiliser light goes out, the car turns over, but will not start. I broke down in Bristol, and the RAC guy, got it going after a dozen tries, and still does not know...

www.kiaownersclub.co.uk

I was just going to post more or less the same as you, addtionally, check for water ingress - especially if the scuttle drain is blocked and / or it's had a replacement windscreen at any point.

 

[Kram]

Yes I was planning to start with the basics first, Im expecting hardest part is getting the plastics off. I assume that the main dealer has the proper tool but it seems they wanted to sell unrelated parts and a new car instead - they sold us two! They took it to another place who also tried the crank sensor.. Doesnt help that its intermittent.
Im assuming there is a fatigued wire or bad connection and I doubt the tool will pin point exactly where.

 

[Ubique]

Unlikely to be crank position sensor as the fuel system should run without that signal to build rail pressure prior to cranking. pin grip on the induction coil around the steering lock would be one of the checks, there probably is a DTC stored but the generic readers usually only read engine, gearbox, brakes & sometimes SRS, you won't get anything from them for the start authorisation.

 

[Ruffian]

Pull the ecu, get the imobilizer removed.

Never a problem again

 

[Kram]

How?

Ive got a logic analyser which will decode plain canbus, I dont know if that will tell me much but might be useful if a steep learning curve to decipher.

Right, next update tomorrow I will get the plastics off and poke everything.

 

[Ruffian]

How?

Ive got a logic analyser which will decode plain canbus, I dont know if that will tell me much but might be useful if a steep learning curve to decipher.

Right, next update tomorrow I will get the plastics off and poke everything.

Specialist job, they can read the imobilizer side of the ecu and trick it into unlocking itself.

Did get it done on my parents old chevrolet spark when was giving issues.

 

[Kram]

Could you recommend anyone?

 

[andymfell]

have you tried a new battery in the key ? i've a kia sportage that one day decided the keyless entry system wouldn't detect the presence of the key (normally unfolds the mirrors when you get near it) managed to open it with the button but the push button start wouldn't operate new battery in remote cured it (good job it was outside of home and i didn't have to go anywhere)

 

[James1979]

Could you recommend anyone?

Martin at vantuner.co.uk did my iveco and a few others for me. Top bloke.
Does light commercials (clue is in the name!) but he may do yours or know someone who might.

 

[Ubique]

How?

Ive got a logic analyser which will decode plain canbus, I dont know if that will tell me much but might be useful if a steep learning curve to decipher.

Right, next update tomorrow I will get the plastics off and poke everything.

It won't be CAN, generally it's either LIN or a proprietary protocol - first things first though - check the signals are passing through the connections. in general terms, expect three wires, +ve, -ve & Sig. with the pickup coil disconnected on the vehicle harness, you should find that the sig wire has an AC voltage that fluctuates (ideally use a scopemeter, picoscope or similar to check the shape of the framing, rolled edges or spikes in the frames are bad) If you can - and after checking pingrip, remove the sig terminal from the connector housing or bridge the +ve and -ve across the open connectors to power up the pickup coil, with the AC voltmeter or scopemeter connected to the sig terminal (not connected to the cabin harness) check for a fluctuating AC voltage, probably around 2-3 volts or if using a scopemeter etc. check for data frames, inserting & turning the key in the lock should vary the voltage / framing. as long as it looks something like the photo below, the actual data is irrelevant at this stage. If there's only two wires, find out which one has a constant DC or constant AC, the other one is the sig wire, pin grip problems are the most common though.

Ideally you won't have the little 'whiskers' - they appear on Mercs because of the way they implement CAN, most other manufacturers do it properly!, it also won't be as 'busy' or at that data rate, expect kB/s not MB/s.

 

[Kram]

A bit more playing with this. When runs, there is a car+key symbol. This lights up but goes out as the engine fires up. When it doesnt start, it just stays permanently lit. With the antena disconnected it doesnt light.
The problem can occur when driving, the car will cut out, turn over but not restart.
When running, disconnecting the antena does not cut it out, so that rules out a bad connection on that?

Thats a bit above my abilities at the moment, just have the cheap logic analyser and a multimeter.
Got the plastics off. The antena pins look a bit bent, but my probes are a bad shape to check contact.

I then did something stupid, poked the green wire on the lock body, acidentally shorting the probe to the body, and hopefully, just blowing a fuse. The car+key light doesnt come on anymore, and the central locking is dead.

It would help if I went out in daylight so, another go tomorrow!

Thanks for the suggestions. @Ubique what are "pin grip" problems? Pin loose in connector?

 

[keithski122]

From what I remember an imobiliser fault cannot cause a cutting out fault only a non start fault.

 

[Ubique]

Hi @Kram yep, 'pin grip' is exactly as you say - we have a set of standard pins to check the connection with but obviously you won't have that... I would suggest two alternatives - de-pin one of the connectors if possible and use the now free pins or sockets to check for 'drag' and grip on both of the pins / sockets, or, go for broke and cut & solder the wires together to bypass the connector - it may be worth (once you've found & replaced the blown fuse!) putting a voltmeter across the connector and wiggling the wiring loom around the steering column to check for any breaks / high resistance before doing anything else, if you find any, the voltage will change markedly.
The pickup circuit will be a 'monitored' circuit so if the circuit goes open or high(er) resistance whilst driving could cause the security to shut down the vehicle.

 

[GafferTapeKing]

Is it manual or Auto ?
If auto there is usually a starter inhibit if any drive is engaged.

My sons Focus died with a similar immobiliser fault, the canbus is shared between many modules and there was a fault with the instrument cluster that effectivley disabled the whole car as none of the modules could communicate.
The fix was to resolder the PCB header pins inside the cluster and it came back from the dead but would only work with one key after that.

From the comments above the car uses LIN not canbus but there is no harm in checking if any harness multi-plugs are only partially locked into place seeing as the Dealer has been in there swapping electricals.