Car designers are crazy !

[premmington]

Where did you hear that nugget about the OM651 timing chains from? sounds like utter bolleaux to me and certainly never mentioned in any M-B training material. Given the amount of clutter at the front of the OM651 & OM654 engines, putting the timing chain there as well would make the design of the coolant galleries problematic at best.

Yes, going to a simplex chain is emissions related - but they're not really that bad of a job to replace, not compared to a lot of BMW engines - also at the rear but with far more room between the bumper cover and the front of the engine.
Wet belts are fine in a controlled environment, once 'out in the wild', there's far too many variables that will affect longevity for them to be viable.

Your quote "Wet belts are fine in a controlled environment, once 'out in the wild', there's far too many variables that will affect longevity for them to be viable."

I got a few customers with Transits/Rangers and 1.0ltr ecobooms - that have done high mileage with no problems - but these are the punters who change the oil regularly and insist on dealer spec supplied oil.

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@Ubique Taken me a little while to get to this - in my simple mind - but I am begining to think - it's down to the oil - wet belt failure - dealer supplied oil is the right spec - not all this badged up "approved stuff" the aftermarket and big named oil suppliers are selling to the indie trade (me) and the public at motor factors.

 

[jimbo84]

Where did you hear that nugget about the OM651 timing chains from? sounds like utter bolleaux to me and certainly never mentioned in any M-B training material. Given the amount of clutter at the front of the OM651 & OM654 engines, putting the timing chain there as well would make the design of the coolant galleries problematic at best.

Yes, going to a simplex chain is emissions related - but they're not really that bad of a job to replace, not compared to a lot of BMW engines - also at the rear but with far more room between the bumper cover and the front of the engine.
Wet belts are fine in a controlled environment, once 'out in the wild', there's far too many variables that will affect longevity for them to be viable.

From mercedes own literature. Last paragraph.



The whole document is here.

https://diysprinter.co.uk/reference/Introduction_OM_651.pdf

 

[oldbikedavey]

It's all been downhill since the Model T Ford......

 

[premmington]

It's all been downhill since the Model T Ford......

I think the best cars were made just after the turn of the century - 2000 onwards. I don't think they were any cheaper compared to wage income thou.

Fuel injection petrols - bodywork that did not rust - not too much tech. Easy to fix.

Diesel's that were low reving and not too powerful and did do high MPG. With no added on emission systems to strangle them to death.

 

[oldbikedavey]

I think the best cars were made just after the turn of the century - 2000 onwards. I don't think they were any cheaper compared to wage income thou.

Fuel injection petrols - bodywork that did not rust - not too much tech. Easy to fix.

Diesel's that were low reving and not too powerful and did do high MPG. With no added on emission systems to strangle them to death.

Citroen BX diesels were pretty good......

 

[dobbslc]

The old Surf, very good if thirsty.

 

[Turbo]

Citroen BX diesels were pretty good......

The XUD engine was one of the best ever made, especially in turbo form. Simple, very reliable, easy to maintain and quite nippy.

Used in many psa and ford cars among others.

 

[dobbslc]

My old Peugeot van had one of these in it. Mercilessly thrashed as it was so slow but it never broke.

 

[Ubique]

From mercedes own literature. Last paragraph.

View attachment 499673

The whole document is here.

https://diysprinter.co.uk/reference/Introduction_OM_651.pdf

2008 - that'd be why I've never seen it, clearly it never made it onto the Xentry portal.
Delphi get a (dis)honourable mention for the injectors, one of the guys I work with was at a M-B dealer when that engine was foisted onto the unsuspecting car buyers, he has many stories of injectors failing coming off the transporters and even the demo / service loan cars braking down on people that were waiting for their own OM651 injectors to be replaced!. IIRC Delphi's warranty exposure was so great that M-B had to buy part of the company to fund the warranty replacements. The whole episode was caused by some accountant objecting to the cost of the proper adhesive used to bond the piezo crystals into the injector body so a cheaper substitute was found....

 

[Ubique]

Your quote "Wet belts are fine in a controlled environment, once 'out in the wild', there's far too many variables that will affect longevity for them to be viable."

I got a few customers with Transits/Rangers and 1.0ltr ecobooms - that have done high mileage with no problems - but these are the punters who change the oil regularly and insist on dealer spec supplied oil.

--------

@Ubique Taken me a little while to get to this - in my simple mind - but I am begining to think - it's down to the oil - wet belt failure - dealer supplied oil is the right spec - not all this badged up "approved stuff" the aftermarket and big named oil suppliers are selling to the indie trade (me) and the public at motor factors.

I think if the owner is prepared to use the correct spec. oil, then they'll probably also adhere to the service interval, use decent quality fuel etc.
Oil additives are a killer for the belts, as is oil dilution from repeated failed DPF regens - why they moved away from the 5th injector in the exhaust is beyond me, it was perfect for getting the DPF temperature up without pushing unburnt fuel into the engine oil.

 

[Ubique]

I wondered this - why you gotta get a big pile of tools out to get the undertray off an Audi. But to be honest - getting anything off an Audi is always a big pile of tools - VW Skoda are better on this front.

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I did a Hyundai hybrid oil change Sat morning - it has access holes for oil drain and oil filter in the undertray - what a nice job - round bits of plastic you remove with a 10mm socket. They even have "oil drain" and "oil fitler" embossed into the little bit of cover you remove.

BMW have similar, but the hole always seems too small or not quite in the right place so I just take the 30+ 8mm screws out instead, much less messy!

 

[Maker]

I think the worst pointless fastener variation has got to be Audi front undertrays, you need a T20, T25, T30 M10 spline and a 13mm socket. There is one T20 screw, why that couldn't have been T25 like the 1/4 turn screws, I have no idea.

It could be a poka yoke thing, so in the factory when they're assembled, it's impossible to overtighten the T20 screw using the gun meant to tighten the M10.

 

[Welderpaul]

I think if the owner is prepared to use the correct spec. oil, then they'll probably also adhere to the service interval, use decent quality fuel etc.
Oil additives are a killer for the belts, as is oil dilution from repeated failed DPF regens - why they moved away from the 5th injector in the exhaust is beyond me, it was perfect for getting the DPF temperature up without pushing unburnt fuel into the engine oil.

Does anyone know the cost for changing a wet belt on a 2022 Ranger?...

 

[iNf]

Porsche supply a tool in the cars tool kit to remove cayenne headlights. Goes in through the inner wing and a 1/4 turn the headlight comes out. Probably the easiest bulb change I've ever done.

It's the same on a boxster.

 

[Robotstar5]

It could be a poka yoke thing, so in the factory when they're assembled, it's impossible to overtighten the T20 screw using the gun meant to tighten the M10.

It was like that at JLR, same with electrical connectors, they were all different shapes, sizes and colours so they couldn't be plugged wrong.

 

[dobbslc]

I think if the owner is prepared to use the correct spec. oil, then they'll probably also adhere to the service interval, use decent quality fuel etc.
Oil additives are a killer for the belts, as is oil dilution from repeated failed DPF regens - why they moved away from the 5th injector in the exhaust is beyond me, it was perfect for getting the DPF temperature up without pushing unburnt fuel into the engine oil.

I had heard of the fifth injector now I know what it was doing,

Pity Vauxhall didn't seems to know about this on the older Zafira.

 

[pint]

Your quote "Wet belts are fine in a controlled environment, once 'out in the wild', there's far too many variables that will affect longevity for them to be viable."

I got a few customers with Transits/Rangers and 1.0ltr ecobooms - that have done high mileage with no problems - but these are the punters who change the oil regularly and insist on dealer spec supplied oil.

--------

@Ubique Taken me a little while to get to this - in my simple mind - but I am begining to think - it's down to the oil - wet belt failure - dealer supplied oil is the right spec - not all this badged up "approved stuff" the aftermarket and big named oil suppliers are selling to the indie trade (me) and the public at motor factors.

being serviced by ford hasn't helped my mates fleet of transits

 

[Ubique]

Does anyone know the cost for changing a wet belt on a 2022 Ranger?...

Expect to pay £1500 or so at a dealer, maybe £150 either side, location dependent.

 

[premmington]

Expect to pay £1500 or so at a dealer, maybe £150 either side, location dependent.

I have never quoted a "just a wet belt service" on a Transit or a Ranger.

Every one I priced up - has been bent valves (non runner) or vac pump full of fibres (causing loss of braking assistance).

 

[m_c]

being serviced by ford hasn't helped my mates fleet of transits

The issue there is fleet drivers and/or fleet managers.

The issues are drivers who'll ignore service lights as long as the van still drives ok, and/or just resets the service indicator as they don't want the hassle of getting their van serviced, and you combine that with whoever books/pays for the service having the attitude "It's not due yet" as they can't comprehend flexible servicing means servicing isn't a fixed interval and will tell drivers to ignore/reset service lights until the van 'does the stated mileage'.

I've mostly dealt with fleets, and you'd be surprised at what drivers will do to avoid going near a garage (along with the opposite who'll relish in the chance to avoid work and go to a garage!), and some of the organisations who'll avoid servicing as much as possible then act surprised when warranty claims get rejected.
Now I don't deal with them, the AA found this out when Ford refused warranty claims on engines, as Ford found out they'd been telling patrols just to reset service lights as they didn't want the downtime associated with vans coming of the road to be serviced, as "it was just a software issue, and the oil was still ok". But the AA weren't alone in that approach. Inchcape would refuse to authorise an oil change on something with flexible servicing unless the service light was on, and combine that with drivers who'd just ignore the service indicator as the van still drove ok, and you can easily understand why so many people have had issues with wet belt failures
.
The servicing issues aren't unique to things with wet belts, it's just wet belts don't tolerate poor servicing as much, as any other mechanical issues aren't likely to show until after the first owner.
I used to maintain fleets of specialist Merc Sprinters, which customers typically kept for ~15 years due to their specialist nature.
One major customer had the oil changed at least twice a year, regardless of mileage, and on our fleet of ~50 would maybe fit an engine once a year. When we lost that contract, the record was one over 900k and still on it's original engine (in it's benefit, that van was primarily doing motorway mileage out with any rush hours, whereas the rest of the fleet were doing local work).
Another similar customer with less than 20 vans, pushed servicing to the limit and beyond, and would go through 2 or 3 engines a year. If they had an engine hit 200k, they'd done well.