Brake cleaner and welding - warning...

[Disco_Mark]

This link was posted up on LR4x4.com, as a link from somewhere else again, but still a very relavent warning to everyone here I think...

original link (a little slow to download) - http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

mirrored here on lr4x4 - http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=45415&st=0&gopid=418834&#entry418834

hope this hasn't been posted before. if so, mods feel free to remove it...

Cheers
Mark

 

[rtbcomp]

Blimey - useful warning there Mark.

 

[Luke]

Whilst the article is scary, as I said on LR4x4, I don't think I've ever used a solvent or chemical during preperation for welding, such that there's still solvent left when I go to weld. Also, I can't think of any other situations where I'd ever have heat, argon and chemicals in the same place at the same time.

 

[bill_gj]

Phosgene - isn't that one of the gasses used in The Great War?

 

[hotrodder]

Phosgene - isn't that one of the gasses used in The Great War?

Yep, from the setting fire to things thread...

Indeed, the release of phosgene (used as a chemical weapon during WW1) is possible with some solvents! Brake cleaner in the UK is generally 'free of chlorinated hydrocarbons' but it's worth checking and allowing time for solvents to evaporate before striking an arc regardless

 

[migwig]

Cripes!

 

[shenion]

Hmm, surprised that it has not been banned here.

I do buy non-cloratic brake cleaner. Mainly because it does not soften rubber or plastic parts. Guess I have another reason.

 

[Angusdog]

The link is one massive image which took ages to download over broadband, so I've retyped it. I want to post it on another couple of forums, as it's an issue of public safety.

Here's the text:

Common Cleaners Can Turn into Poison Gas

Yep, I thought I was a goner this time. How simple it was to get into trouble.

After seeing and reading so many warning labels, we tend to no longer pay them any heed. We buy chemicals and sprays at a local parts house and think "How can this be so bad, health-wise, if I'm buying it over the counter?" Here;s how a small whiff of smoke almost dropped me where I stood.

I had a rush job to do, welding four diesel tanks. I had to patch where they were pitted by road salt corrosion.

Normally I spray a little carb cleaner on the spot I'm going to weld, wipe it off, then preheat the area with an acetylene torch to get rid of any solvents. Where I normally get carb cleaner was sold out, so I got a can of brake cleaner and went through my regular routine. To be on the safe side, I even had the shop door open and the exhaust fan on.

I started TIG welding on Thursday afternoon and had no problem at first. But when I started welding across a really pitted area, I found a couple of drops of carb cleaner that were lurking in a deep dimple. As I came close to the cleaner, a small puff of white smoke popped up, and I almost passed out. I made it outside and sat for a while in the fresh air.

After about 10 minuted, I went to the office and sat at the computer to check the warnings on the brake cleaner can I used. That's when my whole left side started shaking for about 10 to 15 minutes. (I found out later I was having a seizure).

When I was able to control myself again, I read the can's warning: "Vapours may decompose to harmful or fatal corrosive gases such as hydrogen chloride and possibly phosgene." After reading about hydrogen chloride, I started researching phosgene. The active chemical in brake cleaner is tetrachloroethylene. When this chemical is exposed to excessive heat and the gas argon, which is used in MIG and TIG welding, it produces phosgene. Phosgene gas can be fatal with a dose as little as four parts per million: basically a single small puff of smoke. Symptoms can be delated from six to 48 hours after exposure. There is no antidote to phosgene poisoning. If you do survive, the long-term effects can be chronic bronchitis and emphysema.

My breathing still was hard a few hours later, but I felt a little better, so I didn't go to hospital. The chlorine taste and smell in my nose and mouth were still strong. About midnight, I started coughing and my chest started hurting but I thought this would pass after a night's sleep. The next day (Friday), the symptoms got worse and my kidneys started hurting, so I drank a bunch of liquids and cranberry juice. For the next four days, I was constipated and only urinated a lot of clear fluid with no smell. Though sometimes I felt okay, I was really in a lot of paint on and off for the next several days, as well as weak and tired. Then my urine became very dark and smelt terrible.

By the next Monday, nine days after the poisoning, I lost all balance. I was confused and could hardly talk, so I finally went to the emergency room. My symptoms were low O2 level, sugar levels out of control, vertigo and I was hurting badly in my entire chest. I was admitted and put into ICU. My kidneys had probably shut down for those first four days. My lungs were damaged so I had to be on O2. I had to be on insulin to keep my sugar in check. Since there is no antidote for phosgene, all I could do was try to rest and hope I got better. After CT, MRI, EKG and EEG tests, as well as several blood tests it looked like, at least for now, there is no permanent damage. However, the MRI showed fluid in my sinuses and a buildup of fluids near my brain. The phosgene scarred my sinuses, which then became infected. The three doctors I saw said I was really lucky to make it.

After four weeks, it appears that I may have emphysema and chronic bronchitis. I'm on nasal medicine and an inhaler. My sinuses are severely scarred, and my smell nerves are damaged. I still have that awful chlorine taste and smell. I may also have pancreas damage, so I'm now on some stronger medicines.

So why am I telling you all this? I hope to save someone from an easily avoidable sever illness or even death. The cleaning sprays commonly found in thousands of bike shops across the country can be just as dangerous if improperly used. Read the labels and warnings! Look up the chemicals you use. Just because you got away with it before, doesn't mean you won't get in trouble next time.

 

[rtbcomp]

That was a lot of hard work - the image in the LR post, rather than the link to the original image, downloads pretty quickly.

 

[engybenjy]

Some useful if frightening info

I seem to remember seeing something similar on the forum before cannot now find it. Makes for slightly scary reading but I thought he was a bit daft doing it in the first place and then not checking properly afterwards..........

http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

 

[Grit Monkey]

Thanks for posting that Benjy, it makes for quite scary reading!

 

[mike os]

then again if you will use totally inapropriate chemicals without understanding the risks or reading the labels, you get what you deserve.

 

[hotrodder]

Bumpity bump. This is really a reply to this thread http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=30439 but it's locked sooo...

1. It's not brake cleaner specifically but any chlorinated solvent
2. In the UK brake cleaner is the non-chlorinated flavour. I'm not 100% sure that the chlorinated version is banned here but every tin of brake cleaner i've ever bought since learning about the chlorinated solvents thing has been non-chlorinated

Obviously any solvents are potentially dangerous if you try hard enough...

 

[zedhead]

Just so I'm clear on this - the issue is when there is LIQUID solvent in contact with argon isn't it? So if a part cleaned with brake cleaner is left to dry and / or heated prior to welding it's okay?

 

[KemppiFrog]

Related topic: Carbon tetra chloride was banned as a dry cleaning fluid (remember Dab-it-Off?) because if it was inhaled through a cigarette it produced phosgene. Even if not, it still stuffs the liver, as many related hydrocarbons do.(glue sniffers problem)
KF

I can see the idea of easily bought stuff not being dangerous. We are aware of petrol and ingnition, just not some of the others. Certainly I was not aware of this combo.

 

[hotrodder]

Just so I'm clear on this - the issue is when there is LIQUID solvent in contact with argon isn't it? So if a part cleaned with brake cleaner is left to dry and / or heated prior to welding it's okay?

Nothing to do with argon (it's one of the noble gases). The vapours of chlorinated solvents can decompose forming phosgene when exposed to high temps and/or ultraviolet radiation and yes, the story that made the entire internet scared of brake cleaner involved someone welding (heat and UV) on a part which was still wet with chlorinated brake cleaner

Googling something like 'chlorinated hydrocarbons phosgene' will get a bunch of hits on the subject including other welding 'elf 'n safety info

 

[zedhead]

Thanks 'Rodder, I'll be happy cleaning stuff off with brake cleaner and letting it dry before welding now. :-)

 

[Fazed]

Does anyone know if this applies to thinners?
I've been using cheap gunwash as a degreaser on oily steel for years. I guess as I'm still here it doesn't - or have I been lucky?

 

[dannyp]

thinners just catch fire.

 

[hotrodder]

Easiest way to be sure is the msds sheet, if it's chlorinated it'll there'll be words containing 'choro' or 'chloride' like for example trichloroethylene. Many of 'em are banned or their use is restricted these days. Gunwash thinners are usually mixtures of stuff like acetone, toluene, ethanol, methanol etc. None are particually healthy... http://www.uic.edu/sph/glakes/harts1/HARTS_library/solventhazards.txt