Brake cleaner and welding - warning...

[gavuk]

trichloroethylene?..".trike ",we used it for years as a degreaser in liquid and vapour form ,we had to perform an air quality test in ppm before entry or Breathing apparatus to work on the machines .....horrible stuff....worked well.....glad its banned

 

[keith19]

Yeah, 'trike' was horrid stuff. Worked on lathes at one time, one job was true up the bottom of big roller bearing cages. The job went bad when guys were gasping and coughing their guts up on the operation. The Union called in H&S who stopped the job at once.
The cages were degreased with trike, and some bean-counter in the office had struck off the cleaning op after degreasing, to save a few quid. So there was still sufficient trike residue on the steel to produce phosgene gas when cutting...

 

[Robotstar5]

We had a "trike" tank where I worked in the 70's for cleaning parts, even cleaned our hands in it the factory next door was "posh" they had a heated trike tank

 

[gavuk]

I was posh then .....

 

[Cal]

We used to clean suff in trike at RR all the time.

 

[Beady]

Just bumping this again - had no idea about this hazard and tend to use brake cleaner to clean pretty much everything! Am glad I know now!

Fwiw I found out about this from here at 33:02 into the video:

 

[Rocketman]

Just bumping this again - had no idea about this hazard and tend to use brake cleaner to clean pretty much everything! Am glad I know now!

Fwiw I found out about this from here at 33:02 into the video:

I think in the UK virtually every brake cleaner is non-chlorinated, it's may be banned even. So it's probably not a issue.

Maybe someone else can clarify the exact position whether it is banned.

 

[ford34/2]

Equally leathal Tetrachloroethylene, we used it several machines a degreaser, called it trike it was heated in stainless steel tanks and had Imersion heaters in to raise the temperature, It was possible to swith off the machine, drain the tanks and when they were refilled the cold Tetrachloethylene hit the now probably red hot imersion heaters and clouds of Noxious gas came out of the vent holes, tanks were maybe 10 feet long and 18" X 18" from memory about 20 gallons of the stuff, many many years later I found out the gas is Phosgene. An extremely poisonous gas. No ventelation no breathing gear, late 60/70s. But a bottle full was very useful at home, cleaned paint brushes better than new.

Stan

 

[hotrodder]

The brake cleaner thing is all half truths and misses the point that ANY chlorinated solvent can decompose releasing phosgene if you're daft enough to strike an arc on/wave a naked flame at something wet with a highly flammable solvent. From page one of this thread in 2011...

Bumpity bump. This is really a reply to this thread http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=30439 but it's locked sooo...

1. It's not brake cleaner specifically but any chlorinated solvent
2. In the UK brake cleaner is the non-chlorinated flavour. I'm not 100% sure that the chlorinated version is banned here but every tin of brake cleaner i've ever bought since learning about the chlorinated solvents thing has been non-chlorinated

Obviously any solvents are potentially dangerous if you try hard enough...

 

[marlinspike]

I must admit I found that guy's account of his experience quite terrifying.

Apart from brake cleaner, what would be examples of chlorinated solvents that you might use in a garage or car restoration?

 

[hotrodder]

One more time, In the UK brake cleaner is NOT an example of a chlorinated solvent. That almost certainly holds true for the rest of Europe as they've mostly been banned or at least restricted for environmental reasons. If you buy a tin of brake cleaner in the UK it will be mostly naphtha with IPA and/or acetone with some other aliphatic hydrocarbons and will usually have something along the lines of 'contains no chlorinated solvents' written somewhere on the container and/or in the MSDS. Even if it doesn't explicitly state that it's non-chlorinated the important ingredients are ALWAYS listed on the container somewhere and will give the game away... perchloroethylene, tetrachloroethylene, trichloroethylene etc.

Even if the solvent to hand is chlorinated you still need to do something daft like strike an arc on a part that's still wet with whatever you just splashed about and almost certainly came out of a container covered in various red warning squares that point out how flammable, toxic and dangerous to the environment it is...

 

[Beady]

One more time, In the UK brake cleaner is NOT an example of a chlorinated solvent. That almost certainly holds true for the rest of Europe as they've mostly been banned or at least restricted for environmental reasons. If you buy a tin of brake cleaner in the UK it will be mostly naphtha with IPA and/or acetone with some other aliphatic hydrocarbons and will usually have something along the lines of 'contains no chlorinated solvents' written somewhere on the container and/or in the MSDS. Even if it doesn't explicitly state that it's non-chlorinated the important ingredients are ALWAYS listed on the container somewhere and will give the game away... perchloroethylene, tetrachloroethylene, trichloroethylene etc.

Even if the solvent to hand is chlorinated you still need to do something daft like strike an arc on a part that's still wet with whatever you just splashed about and almost certainly came out of a container covered in various red warning squares that point out how flammable, toxic and dangerous to the environment it is...

So is it safe to use brake cleaner prior to welding or not? Sorry if I'm being a bit fik here but it's not clear to me - it seems, from what that bloke was saying in the video I posted, is that the issue is the chemical itself being absorbed into the pores of the material and not that someone is welding 'wet' metal. I mean - brake fluid flashes off within a matter of seconds, or less, so imo you'd almost have to pour the stuff on with one hand whilst striking the arc with the other to 'weld it wet'...

All I wanna know, and probably a bunch of people reading this type of thread, is - is it safe to use to brake cleaner we currently buy in the Eurozone (UK specifically for me) and, of not, what should we be using?

I'm sure most of us ALWAYS have many litres of brake fluid ***Edit:BRAKE CLEANER - NOT FLUID!! /Edit*** knocking around but acetone - I've got about a quarter of a litre, and that's only because I use it for guitar fingerboards.

Is any of this sh*t dangerous to heat up? : "mostly naphtha with IPA and/or acetone with some other aliphatic hydrocarbons"

Basically - what should we be using for safely cleaning stuff prior to welding as I guess I'd better get some!

 

[Bill Edwards]

From that post any brake cleaner you buy in the UK will be safe - I.e if you tip it all over the metal then whether you weld while it's sat in a big puddle or after it's visibly evaporated you won't get harmed by the gasses. So, happily use brake cleaner.

But, be careful as the real risk is from fire - it burns quite well. Don't have bottles or aerosols of the stuff where you weld or grind, because knowing the fumes aren't lethal isn't much use when you're on fire!

 

[doubleboost]

We had Trike for years as a brake cleaner
It came in 5 gallon drums (they were very heavy)
I have seen it sprayed from a "body schults gun" to wash engines off

 

[sardine]

The danger that scares me is leaving a can of wd40, carb cleaner, or spay paint on my welding bench and it arcing.

Being the worlds most messy worker doesn't help.

 

[doubleboost]

The danger that scares me is leaving a can of wd40, carb cleaner, or spay paint on my welding bench and it arcing.

Being the worlds most messy worker doesn't help.

That would spoil your day instantly
Trike takes time

 

[Beady]

From that post any brake cleaner you buy in the UK will be safe - I.e if you tip it all over the metal then whether you weld while it's sat in a big puddle or after it's visibly evaporated you won't get harmed by the gasses. So, happily use brake cleaner.

But, be careful as the real risk is from fire - it burns quite well. Don't have bottles or aerosols of the stuff where you weld or grind, because knowing the fumes aren't lethal isn't much use when you're on fire!

HAHA!!! Top reply mate

Thanks for the answer - cheers!

Extra ten points for making me spit out me vodka!

 

[Beady]

That would spoil your day instantly
Trike takes time

HAHA!!! This place is good-funny!!!

 

[hotrodder]

For it's effectiveness non-chlorinated brake cleaner is about safe as any other highly flammable solvent IMO. It isn't gonna decompose into a gas that's been used as a chemical weapon but it's a lot nastier than straight isopropyl alcohol if you do something daft like wash your hands with it, huff the fumes or use it enclosed spaces. Straight IPA is nowhere near as good as a degreaser and you typically have to go out of your way to buy a 5 litre can of the stuff for sensible money. Acetone is the other usual suspect (your other half probably uses it as nail varnish remover albeit not neat), better degreaser but again usually have to go out of your way to buy sensible quantities unless you live near a fibreglass suppliers

The pre weld cleaning thing is often waaaaay overdone on the internet with some sources insisting everything must be solvent cleaned for a decent weld... stuff like fingerprint oils are only a big deal if welding titanium for some aerospace application or the like in which case there'll be common stuff sense policies in place like wearing clean gloves to handle parts after they've been degreased well away from the welding area. Metals don't 'soak up' stuff as such but obviously seams, joints etc on the part can trap things.

IIRC the origin of the semi recent brake cleaner myth (or half truth, whatever) that keeps doing the rounds was a piece written by someone who admitted to striking up on a part that still had puddles of the stuff on it (at least in corrosion pits/threaded holes) and then touted some other utter nonsense about it being a reaction between brake cleaner and the (noble gas) argon Utter drivel that for some reason won't go away

 

[Beady]

For it's effectiveness non-chlorinated brake cleaner is about safe as any other highly flammable solvent IMO. It isn't gonna decompose into a gas that's been used as a chemical weapon but it's a lot nastier than straight isopropyl alcohol if you do something daft like wash your hands with it, huff the fumes or use it enclosed spaces. Straight IPA is nowhere near as good as a degreaser and you typically have to go out of your way to buy a 5 litre can of the stuff for sensible money. Acetone is the other usual suspect (your other half probably uses it as nail varnish remover albeit not neat), better degreaser but again usually have to go out of your way to buy sensible quantities unless you live near a fibreglass suppliers

The pre weld cleaning thing is often waaaaay overdone on the internet with some sources insisting everything must be solvent cleaned for a decent weld... stuff like fingerprint oils are only a big deal if welding titanium for some aerospace application or the like in which case there'll be common stuff sense policies in place like wearing clean gloves to handle parts after they've been degreased well away from the welding area. Metals don't 'soak up' stuff as such but obviously seams, joints etc on the part can trap things.

IIRC the origin of the semi recent brake cleaner myth (or half truth, whatever) that keeps doing the rounds was a piece written by someone who admitted to striking up on a part that still had puddles of the stuff on it (at least in corrosion pits/threaded holes) and then touted some other utter nonsense about it being a reaction between brake cleaner and the (noble gas) argon Utter drivel that for some reason won't go away

Very interesting, detailed, and informative response mate - cheers!

Particularly like the Ti coverage and background to this 'scare' - very useful indeed as not only will I sleep easier but I'll also be happy to keep washing stuff with brake cleaner but do note your additional comments on other solvent types - thank you!

Oh and, err, maybe I'll stop washing my oily/greasy hands in the stuff now too... I mean... WHO would do a daft thing like THAT!!??