Arc Welder Group Test

[Archie]

I must not stereotype people by their cars.
I must not stereotype people by their cars.
I must not stereotype people by their cars.

 

[malcolm]

This is the exact same reason I want to learn the "hard way" with rods and a cheap buzz box. If I can learn and learn well with something hard to use, then I should have very little problem with better and more expensive gear. Or is my logic flawed?

I've always argued exactly the opposite.

It is easier to achieve a reasonable standard when learning with good equipment. Once you have a reasonable standard you then know how things should work and can make the best of nastier equipment. Or have a good idea which bit of equipment to change if you are unable to achieve a good standard with practice on the cheap kit.

Reasonable kit makes it easier to learn, and gives an idea of what should be happening. It doesn't take the skill out of the job - if anything it allows you to develop more skills doing things that cheap kit just won't let you do. It'll give you good feedback if your rod angle or arc length is wrong.

Too many people buy equipment on price alone, don't learn to weld properly, and give up without achieving anything. It's nothing to do with typewriters, more like deciding to become a stone mason and buying a blunt chisel.

 

[weldequip]

Too many people buy equipment on price

Malcolm, those words should have been written into President Obama's inauguration speech!
weldequip

 

[matt1978]

Malcolm, those words should have been written into President Obama's inauguration speech!
weldequip

Ask not what can your welding supplier do for you.................but what you can do for your welding supplier!!

 

[GeorgeB]

The difference between the oxfords and mordern machines is more like the difference between an electric typewriter and a word processor. Yes you can produce a neatly typed document on an electric type writer, but the operator has be able to spell, understand grammer, also pay attention to the page layout.

As you know, I was well-impressed with your MIG welder on Sunday. Even at my very first attempt, it seemed like point and shoot, with virtually no skill required to get a fair result! What can be better than that if you have the storage space for such a large unit and can justify the cost of the gas and other consumables?

So I can see your analogy as far as MIG vs Arc but not Arc vs Arc as in differences between the units mentioned in this thread. The buck stops with any of these arc units at the tip of the weld rod. How they 'smooth' and 'process' the electricity up to that point is their business. It's the result which counts. I fully accept Snowcat's point that his £2500 Lorch machine is primarily about TIG and it's not fair to call it a £2500 arc welder.

I agree with Muggins that it's better to learn the basics first with simple gear. Or, at least, that's the approach I'm using by sticking with Arc for the time being. I also used that approach with a fully manual SLR film camera, rather than using a point and shoot automatic camera.

 

[GeorgeB]

Malcolm, those words should have been written into President Obama's inauguration speech!
weldequip

Yes, any suggestion by President Obama that buyers should always select the most expensive items going would surely have been in the best interest of salesmen all around the world. I have high hopes for that guy and am confident his judgement is a lot better than that.

 

[malcolm]

I also used that approach with a fully manual SLR film camera, rather than using a point and shoot automatic camera.

Is your analogy the right way around there?

 

[GeorgeB]

Is your analogy the right way around there?

I'm not sure! I was picking up on what I see as Muggins' valid point that there might be advantages in learning on relatively 'difficult' gear which probably requires a greater level of skill. To use a fully manual SLR, I think you need to undertand concepts such as focus, depth of field and aperture settings, which may then prove useful even if you move on to an automatic camera later. You need to balance gas flow, wire speed, etc with a MIG but it's still reckoned to be easier to learn than arc or TIG welding.

 

[weldequip]

SLR's are the camera connoisseur's choice are they not?
weldequip

 

[malcolm]

I'm not sure! I was picking up on what I see as Muggins' valid point that there might be advantages in learning on relatively 'difficult' gear which probably requires a greater level of skill. To use a fully manual SLR, I think you need to undertand concepts such as focus, depth of field and aperture settings, which may then prove useful even if you move on to an automatic camera later. You need to balance gas flow, wire speed, etc with a MIG but it's still reckoned to be easier to learn than arc or TIG welding.

I used to play around with black and white on a manual SLR. I agree the learning improved my photography no end.

Your analogy is not valid though. Would be more correct to compare my first 1.5 megapixel digital camera with no user alterable settings (and I think a fixed focus) with my current semi SLR 8 megapixel camera. It would have been difficult to learn photography with that first digital camera - it took rubbish photos whatever you did with it.

Besides, you are arguing the point for the sake of it. If the Lorch was £40 and the Cosmo £400 which one would you be arguing was better for learning?

Edit> just spotted the topic had moved on without me noticing.

 

[irondarren]

might as well have my shillings worth here.
Which is easier to learn to ride a bicycle or a unicycle. A bicycle isnt that difficult to learn to ride, you will most likely master the skill before you give up. But learning to ride a unicycle my opinion is you are more likely to give up before you learn.
I think Malcolm is right in his analogy. trouble is a buzz box can be had for under £50, so you are more likely to try with a buzz box. I do often wonder how many people buy cheap difficult to learn with equipment and actually give up after a while.

 

[aero]

Its more important when learning to have good stuff. Its hard enough to learn a new skill without **** poor equipment hampering you. And I've now officially filed all those cheapy buzz boxes as **** poor. I'd rather buy something from a quality range secondhand then new rubbish.

 

[aero]

Not all buzz boxes are cheap crap, some actually work OK. I used a Clarke machine I think it was, 160 amps with fan. Welded with it for around and hour at 100 amps before it clicked off. Then off it went again, no drama and seemed to weld OK.

A rod and a half at 90 amps before its reduced to a glowing wreck isn't worth £40 to me!

 

[scarecrow]

As I said before I would be more worried about the wires heating up inside the machine
if a Chinese motor is rated three 3hp. It means that it can produce 3hp before it goes on fire they must rate their welders in a similar fashion

 

[Archie]

The 'how' is simply down to the vast amount of cheap labour available.

'Why' is very much more depressing. The answer is because that's what we, the West, demand: cheap stuff. And welders, sadly, are no exception.

 

[TechnicAl]

archie

Im not sure that WE have demanded it. Some dealers have seen the prices available and have seen the opportunity for a fast buck.
Our inherent greed has wafted the flames and made us think why should I pay for a traditional brand when I can get Chinese for half the price.
In many cases purchasers have realised too late why they bought the original product but there are some who now can afford a MIG welder or a plasma cutter who couldnt before.
I think we have CREATED a market rather than react to Market demands.

One example is a MIG wire importer who used to only supply chinese scaffolding. He saw the opprotunity for cheap MIG wire and jumped on the bandwagon.

But I agree with what you say

 

[matt1978]

Yes........its a subject that's been raised on here before many times.

From my own experience/observations of the welding industry, a lot of it has been created by Manufacturers and Distributors........I have seen countless exapmles...

A Distributor is selling a Box for £10, he buys it off the manufacturer for £7 and the £3 is profit. Everyone is happy.

Then he see's an opportunity to get a simerla (and simerla should be used loosely) box from China that he can buy for £4, so he buys a load of these boxes, but insted of maintaining his original sales price, he starts selling them for £6 to try and 'clean' up in the market place.

He doesn't look at the fact that he is making overall less profit and has pretty much destroyed the market place for said boxes.

I have seen it with welding machines, Gloves, Wires, Regulators etc etc lots of things.

 

[Archie]

I see your point, Al, but isn't it a bit of a chicken and egg situation? Dealers had to know that people would buy the cheaper stuff in order for there to be the opportunity for a quick buck.

 

[malcolm]

Also margins on the Chinese **** tend to be massive. Ever wondered why occasionally there's a discount from £150 to £40? Is the distributor is buying the things in for £60 and taking the loss just to make you happy, or did they cost the distributor £20? Big markup going on there maybe.

I'd much rather have my money going towards producing the product I'm buying so I can end up with something decent rather than sending my money to some git (who generally doesn't care about how I'll get on) just for selling it to me.

 

[TechnicAl]

I see your point, Al, but isn't it a bit of a chicken and egg situation? Dealers had to know that people would buy the cheaper stuff in order for there to be the opportunity for a quick buck.

I think thats our inherent greed. We are all guilty of thinking that Tesco Corn Flakes are really Kelloggs in a different box. We can even convince ourselves that they taste the same until one day the penny drops and we stop kidding ourselves.

Im no exception, Ive done it, and ,whats even more annoying, I continue to do it (Yorkshireman). Its hard to resist the pull of the bargain.