Another smart (dumb) meter thread

[GRW]

@GRW
This is all sadly so true! I come across badly installed solar, heat pumps (got 2 in my home) EV chargers almost daily. And sometimes badly installed by the bigger companies!
It's such a shame, these systems could actually be helping people, not just helping shareholders.
Greed and especially corporate greed has a lot to answer for!

What little I understand about it.... is that Ground Source is more effective than Air Source? Yet its Air Source that seems to be being installed - I can only imagine that the reasons for this are simply that it's got to be a lot easier & cheaper to install AS, without any need to dig holes & bury stuff)?
Whatever, installing this kit in old, draughty buildings just smacks of "just put them in and hit a target" with no concern for the viability or impact upon the occupants (both in running costs and in terms of them paying a fortune to remain in the cold) and incredibly unethical.

(As a side note, I was dismayed in that the property I'm using as an example - is owned by the guy I've been working for. There's no way he would qualify for the Grant.... but his  Tenants do! So a property owned by an individual with the assets & wherewithal to afford to pay - gets his building done for free, because his tenants meet the requirements.
How can that be right, and an ethical & responsible use of Taxpayers money??)

 

[sparkysy]

I have seen a few ground source installs that have not gone well too, but yes air source is a lot more straightforward. Trouble is, as @Kayos would probably agree, if sized and installed properly these technologies do work extremely well. Unfortunately it's not often it would seem that they are. Giving them a bad reputation and slowing the uptake of it all!
And yes it's pointless putting any source heat pump into a property with single glazed windows and no insulation, just not going to work efficiently at all.
But it makes money for someone so it continues!

 

[GRW]

The fact that previously tax cheap EVs are now more common and now creating a hole in tax revenue, which is being recouped with other taxes is not a conspiracy, it's simple maths! And it's not what is being discussed here. (Side note, remember the post I wrote regarding baseless conspiracies being really complicated?)

That's great that you're making testable predictions

How about making one now; in real terms how much more expensive will electric be once whatever "critical mass" of smart meters get installed?

I'll make one for you too. In the 3 years time, I predict, with a 70% certainty, that electric will cost less on average than it does now.

I don't have any particular faith in "the system" the world has really bad stuff in it. Bad people too. With bad motives. I'm just telling you that there is no evidence massive groups of these baddies are conspiring together. Whether to make our lives worse for the spurious reasons talked about here or otherwise.

OK, I'm in. My prediction is that (within 3-years of the "critical mass" of SM rollout, whenever that may be, & I'm certainly not going to help if I can avoid it).... then the  overall cost p.a. to a household will increase in real terms..... unless perhaps they are prepared to be fastidiously adroit with minimising & timing their energy usage, & to only using White Goods, Car Chargers or any larger loads excludively in low(er) tariff periods (so in inconvenient periods like the early hours, and never between around 6 & 9am, and 3pm to midnight etc).
The Smart Meters WILL be used to penalise householders heavily if they use energy at higher demand periods (as determined by the Supplier & Govt) - this in turn means the need for less generators etc - so either you scrimp and compromise, or disproportionately fund the big corps investment in new power stations).
With the big push to EV guaranteeing an exponential hike in electricity demand on top......

We know the UK Grid & Network cannot cope now due to decades of neglect & no investment. Having misspent & wasted all our tax money, the only way any Corp & Govt is going to build - is if the Corps gets to hammer the Consumer on charges, and/or the Govt raises money through extra taxation upon us (or more likely - both).

Cheaper Electrical Energy & lower real world running costs for the householder? Hell yes - I'll take that bet (& hope to lose it, but expecting to win).

 

[addjunkie]

OK, I'm in. My prediction is that (within 3-years of the "critical mass" of SM rollout, whenever that may be, & I'm certainly not going to help if I can avoid it).... then the  overall cost p.a. to a household will increase in real terms..... unless perhaps they are prepared to be fastidiously adroit with minimising & timing their energy usage, & to only using White Goods, Car Chargers or any larger loads excludively in low(er) tariff periods (so in inconvenient periods like the early hours, and never between around 6 & 9am, and 3pm to midnight etc).
The Smart Meters WILL be used to penalise householders heavily if they use energy at higher demand periods (as determined by the Supplier & Govt) - this in turn means the need for less generators etc - so either you scrimp and compromise, or disproportionately fund the big corps investment in new power stations).
With the big push to EV guaranteeing an exponential hike in electricity demand on top......

We know the UK Grid & Network cannot cope now due to decades of neglect & no investment. Having misspent & wasted all our tax money, the only way any Corp & Govt is going to build - is if the Corps gets to hammer the Consumer on charges, and/or the Govt raises money through extra taxation upon us (or more likely - both).

Cheaper Electrical Energy & lower real world running costs for the householder? Hell yes - I'll take that bet (& hope to lose it, but expecting to win).

I wonder where you get the energy to worry about so many things….I struggle to find the energy to actually get up most mornings. And usually only do so I dont wee the bed!

 

[GRW]

I wonder where you get the energy to worry about so many things….I struggle to find the energy to actually get up most mornings. And usually only do so I dont wee the bed!

Who said I worry about them?
Generally I subscribe to the maxim "none but a fool worries about things he cannot influence".

However, I am an idealist. Therefore, the blatant and sanctioned corruption of so many things, and the deserving getting short shrift while the shifty and dodgy get supported to prosper - does not sit well with me.

It's no bad thing to have a healthy dose of scepticism and distrust nowadays IMO, and to question the why's and wherefores, and to think for oneself about just what things might really be (as opposed to what you are told they are). Being lied to so others can profit from that lie is now the norm, so trust in anyone "Selling", in Politics or in Government is in short supply from this quarter - with good reason

The Meek do not inherit the Earth, nor do The Faithful. They get ripped off by the Charlatans without mercy or conscience.

 

[Gareth J]

Cheaper Electrical Energy & lower real world running costs for the householder? Hell yes - I'll take that bet (& hope to lose it, but expecting to win).

I just fixed for 3years. Marginally cheaper for a 3year deal than a one year. Scottish power also seem to believe electric cost will fall relatively soon. It still may increase - another or ongoing Ukraine for example.

 

[Gareth J]

It's no bad thing to have a healthy dose of scepticism and distrust nowadays IMO

When does healthy skepticism cross over into damaging paranoia?

Choose your sources carefully. Everyone selling you conspiracy theories have a motivation. And that motive isn't to enlighten anyone with truthful insight. They don't care if you burn down a 5g mast or give COVID to someone vulnerable in your neighborhood. They just want your attention.

 

[GRW]

When does healthy skepticism cross over into damaging paranoia?

Choose your sources carefully. Everyone selling you conspiracy theories have a motivation. And that motive isn't to enlighten anyone with truthful insight. They don't care if you burn down a 5g mast or give COVID to someone vulnerable in your neighborhood. They just want your attention.

Agreed.
What though if your "sources" are your own observations and conclusions?
"Just because I'm paranoid - doesn't mean they aren't out to get me!" (always found that one amusing).

I'm well aware that that mainstream media and TV are not reliable sources for anything btw & that pretty much everyone has an agenda.

So much of what is happening in the UK IMO looks to be perhaps innocuous and remote viewed in isolation - but take a wide overall view and there's a lot to suggest that there are a myriad threads being pulled, drawing us inexorably in one direction.

Clearly you do not see what I see. Which means either I'm suffering from paranoid delusions & seeing non-existent demons, or you're blissfully unaware of what's going on.

As I said - time will tell.

 

[GRW]

I just fixed for 3years. Marginally cheaper for a 3year deal than a one year. Scottish power also seem to believe electric cost will fall relatively soon. It still may increase - another or ongoing Ukraine for example.

A wise move if you are comfortable with your current deal.
Given your earlier bullish confidence in the trend towards cheaper Energy though - I'd have thought you'd have remained on variable to take advantage of falling prices

 

[addjunkie]

Clearly you do not see what I see. Which means either I'm suffering from paranoid delusions & seeing non-existent demons, or you're blissfully unaware of what's going on.

As I said - time will tell.

Either way “they”, whom ever they are, will get you anyway.

In any society we are steered one way or another…..in years gone by…the church steered us, then the media, soap operas, the internet…….is being steered a particularly bad thing, its the selection of the steering committee where in lies the issue.

 

[GRW]

Either way “they”, whom ever they are, will get you anyway.

In any society we are steered one way or another…..in years gone by…the church steered us, then the media, soap operas, the internet…….is being steered a particularly bad thing, its the selection of the steering committee where in lies the issue.

Agreed. "We're all doomed!".

However - being aware can at least mean that one might stave off being ripped off a few times along the path to Doom, or delay things a tad eh?

The Smart Meter is a good example of this I think. The TV sales pitch & the Govt-backed push for them - is all about telling us how they'll help us save energy & therefore money.
But if you really look at the advantages for you, and the serious advantages and control over your Supply you hand over - then it's obvious that the real beneficiary is most definitely not you! Reason enough to resist having one as long as possible IMO.

(E-on went from trying to bully me into a SM with a relentless barrage of bull**** to going so far as to offer me a £100 cash bung to have one when I wouldn't budge. Unfortunately many will cave, bringing the Doomsday for Total Energy Control another step closer. If more people did more big picture thinking, then as a population we'd be an awful lot better off IMO).

 

[Gareth J]

A wise move if you are comfortable with your current deal.
Given your earlier bullish confidence in the trend towards cheaper Energy though - I'd have thought you'd have remained on variable to take advantage of falling prices

Not bullish at all. Current trend appears downwards. But am not confident. I put a prediction of and arbitrary 70% confidence. If things go up, they could go up a LOT, as we saw post Russian invasion. I want to hedge against that. Plus current rates are sustainable for the business. Business connections make no sense to be on variable, it's a choice between suppliers, one, two or three years fix.

 

[GRW]

Not bullish at all. Current trend appears downwards. But am not confident. I put a prediction of and arbitrary 70% confidence. If things go up, they could go up a LOT, as we saw post Russian invasion. I want to hedge against that. Plus current rates are sustainable for the business. Business connections make no sense to be on variable, it's a choice between suppliers, one, two or three years fix.

Markets as we know - are manipulated, and always so that there results in a profit for the manipulator.
The net result is invariably more real world costs to the consumer.

There may be peaks & troughs on the x-y graph - but overall the line always heads towards the top-right corner.

 

[dobbslc]

Surely if you're that worried about "them" remotely turning your electric off you can just remove your tinfoil hat and wrap it round the smart meter aerial so it can't communicate with the outside world.
Then they'd have to send the Jack booted Thought Police round to kick the door in.

 

[Gareth J]

I'm well aware that that mainstream media and TV are not reliable sources for anything btw & that pretty much everyone has an agenda.

I'm not talking about traditional media as a source of information. Good, bad and ugly, it's all available. But their bias and agendas are very transparent. And they do have to operate within a framework which has some checks/balances/policing.

I'm talking about being wary of stuff that's presented to you from seemingly unbiased, often apparent individuals online. It's regularly not the case and the creators of such content have no motive to provide you with sound journalism, merely attract and good tour attention. And they have almost zero oversight or policing. If you are prone to a conspiratorial mindset, you'll be presented with that. A lot of the things you've written here hint that you have been fed misinformation that holds your attention in this area. Indeed, you're clearly motivated to interact regarding it, as you are doing so here (me too! Cripes!).

 

[Gareth J]

Markets as we know - are manipulated, and always so that there results in a profit for the manipulator.
The net result is invariably more real world costs to the consumer.

There may be peaks & troughs on the x-y graph - but overall the line always heads towards the top-right corner.

Think you need to read a few basics on economics. A lot of confusion here with inflation, economic growth. Plenty of companies go bust as well as succeed, indeed, pre Russian invasion, plenty of electric companies gambled on a much more stable energy market, allowed their customers to fix at low prices and subsequently went bust, remember?

 

[GRW]

I'm not talking about traditional media as a source of information. Good, bad and ugly, it's all available. But their bias and agendas are very transparent. And they do have to operate within a framework which has some checks/balances/policing.

I'm talking about being wary of stuff that's presented to you from seemingly unbiased, often apparent individuals online. It's regularly not the case and the creators of such content have no motive to provide you with sound journalism, merely attract and good tour attention. And they have almost zero oversight or policing. If you are prone to a conspiratorial mindset, you'll be presented with that. A lot of the things you've written here hint that you have been fed misinformation that holds your attention in this area. Indeed, you're clearly motivated to interact regarding it, as you are doing so here (me too! Cripes!).

S'ok - I didn't come down in the last rain shower
Here in Wales, the misinformation and indeed suppression of information through all forms of media is truly disturbing - and a graphic demonstration that honest journalism & investigative reporting is a myth.
The ongoing and protracted episodes of wrongdoing from Members of The Senedd.... well the "News" and bias from the BBC right through to the taxpayer funded Faceache propaganda was a staggering assault mix of outright lies and Spin.
IMO only fools accept anything now on face value.

 

[GRW]

Think you need to read a few basics on economics. A lot of confusion here with inflation, economic growth. Plenty of companies go bust as well as succeed, indeed, pre Russian invasion, plenty of electric companies gambled on a much more stable energy market, allowed their customers to fix at low prices and subsequently went bust, remember?

I have studied economics as part of my Business & Finance studies. Now I'll admit that's not more than a basic understanding & does not make me an Economist (though I was taught by a Lecturer who was one and who worked in Westminster) - but it does mean I have a better grasp than most of the UK population (more a reflection of how poor overall the UK is about Economics than my knowledge).

With respect - I suggest it's best to not assume the other person is entirely ignorant.

As for the Energy Co's going pop - that is not an indicator of Economics, but an indicator that those running those Co's were (as is so often the case) Chancers and Gamblers with (other people's) money, who gambled and lost.

 

[bricol]

I'm beginning to understand why there was a shortage of aluminium foil for a while . . .

 

[Gareth J]

only fools accept anything now on face value.

Equally, only fools believe unsubstantiated conspiracy theories they read online from sources with zero accountability or credentials...