Another senseless death from jack collapse...

[8ob]

We were pulled into a big HS meeting a few years ago about work related injuries, long story short it was the older guys making up the numbers on the fatality/serious injury list. I think we just get a bit complacent as we get older.

Bob

 

[I'm getting on a bit]

Would you walk under a crane lifting a load, no obviously not, but people do, its no different.

I drive a van so no rear window.

When I am reversing I often see/get people walk behind me, I would walk in front of a van lorry that was reversing, but then I am not a stupid person.

 

[HopefullySoon]

This is a real complex argument

One of my colleagues is investigating a crane collapse that crushed the driver who sadly died. His mates wanted to move him but Emergency services advised not to move him. Chap died as a result of the correct advice, equally his mates could have been responsible for his death if he died as a result of THIER intervention. Family are having a massive argument in the courts about this.

As far as I'm aware .... You can't be held accountable (assuming you have no medical training ) to try to save someone's life in an emergency situation.

It is government Policy as far as I have heard debated that The law is such as so not to stop a member of the public intervening in an emergency situation acting on the facts as is presented at the time .

You can't be prosecuted for acting in such circumstances , regardless of outcome .

Parm , this is way more your area than mine .... Could you look into it further .

Regards

Malc [/QUOTE]


Edited to add , You are first on the scene to an accident on the motorway at whatever hour and a car is on crashed badly ,petrols leaking Severely the and engines running will all lanes running , what do you do , stand by ring 999 and wait for FB to turn out waiting for the car to explode due to an errant spark , the drivers trapped and the only way to proper safety is then to haul them out risking a severed spinal cord .... I would yank them out in a heartbeat in that situation .

Better to be paralysed and alive than dead and buried waiting

 

[brightspark]

rather snuff it than be paralysed

 

[Parm]

As far as I'm aware .... You can't be held accountable (assuming you have no medical training ) to try to save someone's life in an emergency situation.

It is government Policy as far as I have heard debated that The law is such as so not to stop a member of the public intervening in an emergency situation acting on the facts as is presented at the time .

You can't be prosecuted for acting in such circumstances , regardless of outcome .

Parm , this is way more your area than mine .... Could you look into it further .

Regards

Malc

Edited to add , You are first on the scene to an accident on the motorway and a car is on crashed severly ,petrols leaking and engines running, what do you do , stand by ring 999 and wait for FB to turn out waiting for the car to explode due to an errant spark , the drivers trapped and the only way to proper safety is then to haul them out risking a severed spinal cord .... I would yank them out in a heartbeat in that situation .

Better to paralysed and alive than dead and buried waiting[/QUOTE]


The fire situation is totally different, irrespective of any other injuries that you wouldn't have time to assess I think most people would try and remove the person from the burning wreck if safe to do so. Threat to life is much more acute here than if crushed

 

[Richard.]

As far as I'm aware .... You can't be held accountable (assuming you have no medical training ) to try to save someone's life in an emergency situation.

It is government Policy as far as I have heard debated that The law is such as so not to stop a member of the public intervening in an emergency situation acting on the facts as is presented at the time .

You can't be prosecuted for acting in such circumstances , regardless of outcome .

Parm , this is way more your area than mine .... Could you look into it further .

Regards

Malc

[/QUOTE]
This topic has so many variables but you can be prosecuted for carrying out first aid if your actions are proved negligent and as a result caused harm that would not of happened if you hadn't of acted the way you did.
If your not a first aider you don't have to act and it's advised that if you don't know how to react you simply call 999 and reassure if possible. If you do carry out first aid then you accept responsibility for the casualty. That doesn't mean your responsible if they die but it does mean your responsible if your actions make them die.
An example would be seeing an asthmatic having a major attack without an inhaler. They need ventalin and you untrained take an inhaler from a bystander and give it to the casualty. The wrong inhaler then makes the situation go worse and the casualty dies. You are liable, you have caused this death. You might of had the best intentions but had you sat them up and calmed them down this could of been enough to keep them breathing till the pros were on the scene. its a difficult one because it's got to be proved you acted negligently and it's got to be proved that what you did made the situation worse.

 

[Robotstar5]

.....

Edited to add , You are first on the scene to an accident on the motorway at whatever hour and a car is on crashed badly ,petrols leaking Severely the and engines running will all lanes running , what do you do , stand by ring 999 and wait for FB to turn out waiting for the car to explode due to an errant spark , the drivers trapped and the only way to proper safety is then to haul them out risking a severed spinal cord .... I would yank them out in a heartbeat in that situation .

Better to be paralysed and alive than dead and buried waiting

When I did rally rescue, we were sent to a serious incident, when we got there other competitors had stopped to get the driver out, you can see where they had bent the door frame out to get access.

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

It's a tough call as most people freeze or just panic. Personally I'd prefer someone to at least try to help. It is amazing how stupid and/or selfish people can be. When I found myself in a similar situation I used my car to block half the road to stop the traffic! Hardest decision in a bike accident is when do you have to take their helmet off for example....at the point where there is literally no other choice.

 

[Parm]

This topic has so many variables but you can be prosecuted for carrying out first aid if your actions are proved negligent and as a result caused harm that would not of happened if you hadn't of acted the way you did.
If your not a first aider you don't have to act and it's advised that if you don't know how to react you simply call 999 and reassure if possible. If you do carry out first aid then you accept responsibility for the casualty. That doesn't mean your responsible if they die but it does mean your responsible if your actions make them die.
An example would be seeing an asthmatic having a major attack without an inhaler. They need ventalin and you untrained take an inhaler from a bystander and give it to the casualty. The wrong inhaler then makes the situation go worse and the casualty dies. You are liable, you have caused this death. You might of had the best intentions but had you sat them up and calmed them down this could of been enough to keep them breathing till the pros were on the scene. its a difficult one because it's got to be proved you acted negligently and it's got to be proved that what you did made the situation worse.[/QUOTE]

Richard

That's a good explanation. I don't have enough knowledge to know the exact legal position but from the numerous courses Ive been on over the last 20 years or so the message is the same, if you don't know then don't get involved.

 

[HopefullySoon]

Edited to add , You are first on the scene to an accident on the motorway and a car is on crashed severly ,petrols leaking and engines running, what do you do , stand by ring 999 and wait for FB to turn out waiting for the car to explode due to an errant spark , the drivers trapped and the only way to proper safety is then to haul them out risking a severed spinal cord .... I would yank them out in a heartbeat in that situation .

Better to paralysed and alive than dead and buried waiting

The fire situation is totally different, irrespective of any other injuries that you wouldn't have time to assess I think most people would try and remove the person from the burning wreck if safe to do so. Threat to life is much more acute here than if crushed[/QUOTE]


Ok parm I'll use ur situation ... A guy has sustained massive crush injuries ..... As a member of joe public , the first thi g I would do is lift the weight off him as f...Ing quick as I could while waiting for paramedics / FB a to attend by any means possible !

Once the weight is off him his chance improve .

It all boils down to how your respond in a given circumstance , I'm a cool cucumber and have the ability to weigh up / access the situation ... But if the choice is do this and face consequence or do nothing and he dies ...... I know where I'm putting money down .

Malc

 

[Parm]

Just to bring this thread back on to track a little, I responeded as there was a post suggesting bystanders were as much to blame as the person that was involved in the accident.

My stance is that it was unfair to blame the bystanders as it's unlikely that they were medically trained and wouldn't have known that moving the load was the wrong thing to do.

 

[Richard.]

I don't have enough knowledge to know the exact legal position

Mate I'm no law expert either but i always ask the question. My first aid tutor must dred my refresher courses because I test him big time with the questions and to be fair he knows his stuff.

 

[Parm]

The fire situation is totally different, irrespective of any other injuries that you wouldn't have time to assess I think most people would try and remove the person from the burning wreck if safe to do so. Threat to life is much more acute here than if crushed

Ok parm I'll use ur situation ... A guy has sustained massive crush injuries ..... As a member of joe public , the first thi g I would do is lift the weight off him as f...Ing quick as I could while waiting for paramedics / FB a to attend by any means possible !

Once the weight is off him his chance improve .

It all boils down to how your respond in a given circumstance , I'm a cool cucumber and have the ability to weigh up / access the situation ... But if the choice is do this and face consequence or do nothing and he dies ...... I know where I'm putting money down .

Malc[/QUOTE]


That is exactly what most people would do, but that doesn't make it correct

If you dial the emergency services these days they very quickly assess the situation over the phone and straight away give advice that's commensurate to the situation.

In accident situations it's always best to leave it to the emergency services, far too many times I'm aware where the good citizen gone to help has also succumbed

Each to thier own but I know what I would do

 

[HopefullySoon]

Just to bring this thread back on to track a little, I responeded as there was a post suggesting bystanders were as much to blame as the person that was involved in the accident.

My stance is that it was unfair to blame the bystanders as it's unlikely that they were medically trained and wouldn't have known that moving the load was the wrong thing to do.

But that to me is the hub of the issue ....... If I act in good faith (most ppl don't have first aid ECT ... Although how that would help in a serious situation is negligible ) , you HAVE to respond to the enviroment and what's happening in front of your eyes ... In an emergency situation time is of essence ...... You don't have time to second guess yourself re litigation ... Act on what your see before you and be damned for your actions after the event

 

[Parm]

That's not what I said.

I said that the bystanders were as much to blame as the jack (which was stated in a report as having no damage or failure of any kind, so perfectly functional but used incorrectly).

I don't understand then, why are the bystanders to blame?

Man used a jack in a fashion he shouldn't have, it goes wrong and he's dead. Your blaming by standers and suggesting post man should have jacked up him up and he might have lived.

That's not the correct thing to do, but bystanders and post man were probably not medically trained, wouldn't have known what to do therefore can't be blamed

 

[Richard.]

an inhaler. They need ventalin and you untrained take an inhaler from a bystander and give it

Surely, if you've had 'training'

If you'd had training I'd expect you'd not get that wrong but if your not trained like I posted and you chose to intervene then you can be prosecuted if your actions are proved to of caused the persons situation to worsen. Not easy to prove and to be fair most people would not want to stand and do nothing.
Someone has fainted and you crack there rips open by carrying out resuscitation. Your not a first aider you don't know how to check if someone is breathing or has a pulse and you chose to do what you see in the films and bang on there chest. Might have best intentions but your actions have made that worse and your liable.

 

[brightspark]

fire flood or any other emergency I would do my best to help someone but would think of my own safety 1st and the risk . couldn't live with myself just stood there watching doing nothing

 

[Parm]

So why the nationwide push to ram public access defibrillators on every street corner?

Not that I agree with those, but that's a different conversation...

That isn't even vaugly close to the conversation we are having here. In a heart attack situation you have an excellent chance of saving someone's life. Take the machine out of the box, attach electrode pads and then a human being isn't required, the machine does it all

An industrial accident is totaly differnt and not comparable

 

[Richard.]

fire flood or any other emergency I would do my best to help someone but would think of my own safety 1st and the risk . couldn't live with myself just stood there watching doing nothing

Me neither. And I'd probably be stupid enough to risk myself to help someone else. That's just the way I'm made. I could never watch kids suffer. I'd never live with myself if I didn't do everything I could. There is nothing wrong with getting involved and nothing wrong with doing your best but if you think you can't be prosecuted for it if it goes horribly wrong and it's because of your actions then I'm afraid you can.

 

[Parm]

But jacking it up and getting him out is the correct thing to do (unless there's blood running out...)

The description was that his legs were sticking out, so the weight was likely on his torso somewhere - getting it off would likely have saved him.

On the other hand, it was a very Darwinian outcome...

The correct medical intervention in a crush injury is to not remove the load under any circumstance. This is a fact

It's up to you if you want to go with this or not