Another senseless death from jack collapse...

[pedrobedro]

A friend of mine died after being trapped under a tipped fork lift truck. The guard pinned him down by the legs and when he got out he was walking and talking then collapsed with heart failure due to the blood toxin build up. I used to help out a vehicle recovery yard and they were called out a few times to lift vehicles off victims under HGV, very disturbing jobs.

 

[Richard.]

If a guy is trapped by anything above the waist ( except for the arms) I would say always get the load off. Trapped by the legs you're unlikely to die from anything but toxic shock when released but if it's vital organs that's a different matter.

Of course you could always try to find out how long it's been by asking the casualty or bystanders. If I knew someone was crushed less than 20 Mins ago I'd be thinking about saving their trapped limbs. If I knew it was more than that I'd be thinking about saving their life even if it meant losing an appendage.
Tough call either way.

You've got less than 20mins Pete
Half that I'd say maybe 15 tops.
And if they go into shock you've got even less. I'm no medical man but I've been a first aider for 15 years solid and although they change and update procedures every time I renew it the crush injures allways remains a grey area on what you should actually do and the outcome can never be predictable.
No two situations are gonna be the same but if was in a position where I thought I have to release someone I'd always try to apply some pressure (not always possible) between the crushed limb and the persons organs before release. Tie something tightly around it perhaps could buy you enough vital time by restricting the flow of these toxins. The other side of the coin is someone who isn't actually in shock could very well go into shock after release of these toxins into the body.
We can all talk hindsight but how we would actually react in that situation is any bodies guess. The most knowledgeable people in the world could be the most useless if they simply fold under the pressure. I'd like to think I'd do the right thing but if I didn't I can at least say I did the wrong thing but with the right intentions.

 

[I'm getting on a bit]

Didn't know not to help lift after a long time trapped

 

[Richard.]

Didn't know not to help lift after a long time trapped

A lot of people dont and immediate thought is "get em out save there life" they may even thank you for it and walk away but the reality is you may have just killed them. The hardest part for me would be to physically watch someone suffer in antagonistic pain knowing you have the power to release them but do nothing based on your knowledge of the consequences.

 

[Rudi McAnichal]

Used appropriately the provided jacks are perfectly sufficient for changing a wheel (their intended purpose).

… BUT “used appropriately” means inserting the jack in the correct place – many vehicles have only a mark on the sill to indicate the fore-and-aft position, and nothing to show how the correct lateral position (which might be obvious to an experienced mechanic, but not to other drivers, and perhaps difficult for anybody to see in the dark)

… AND “perfectly sufficient” only applies when the load is vertical (car designers probably assume that you will never need to change a wheel on a hill or an uneven road, and that the vehicle will never roll an inch back or forward as it is jacked up).

A concave chock was supplied in the toolkit of a 2CV. Each of our vehicles now carries two of them, and they are MUCH more effective than a square block or straight-sided wedge.

Maybe a good idea to carry a jack designed for a much heavier vehicle – I saved the scissor jack when my 1972 Saab 99 went to the scrapper, and it is vastly superior to anything supplied with a modern light car.

 

[Pete.]

You've got less than 20mins Pete
Half that I'd say maybe 15 tops.
And if they go into shock you've got even less. I'm no medical man but I've been a first aider for 15 years solid and although they change and update procedures every time I renew it the crush injures allways remains a grey area on what you should actually do and the outcome can never be predictable.
No two situations are gonna be the same but if was in a position where I thought I have to release someone I'd always try to apply some pressure (not always possible) between the crushed limb and the persons organs before release. Tie something tightly around it perhaps could buy you enough vital time by restricting the flow of these toxins. The other side of the coin is someone who isn't actually in shock could very well go into shock after release of these toxins into the body.
We can all talk hindsight but how we would actually react in that situation is any bodies guess. The most knowledgeable people in the world could be the most useless if they simply fold under the pressure. I'd like to think I'd do the right thing but if I didn't I can at least say I did the wrong thing but with the right intentions.

20mins is what they tell you in the harness course but you're right I checked my first aid manual in it says 15 minutes. I guess you get a bit longer in a harness because the straps only round half a limb.

 

[Richard.]

20mins is what they tell you in the harness course

That's changed now as well. They always told us 20 min in a harness but the last one I did in Leeds 6 months ago said anything over 5 can be potentially dangerous. They have also stopped hanging you in a harness too now on the course.

 

[winchman]

There is a special number you can ring in this situation, they will give you all the advice you need, one of the many questions they will ask is how long have they been trapped as this can be critical.
One thing often forgotten is send some one to meet the ambulance to help get them to the scene asap.

 

[Parm]

I was going to post earlier but thought twice about it.
Many years ago I took my two toddlers to the local play park which was a few hundred meters from the village, as we walked in I could hear frantic screaming and shouting and I found a young boy aged about 7 who had been playing on the old heavy roundabout, he'd half fallen off at speed and one leg had been dragged under the roundabout. His leg was folded at the knee (the right way thank goodness) but the whole weight of the roundabout was being carried on his leg.
I gave my mobile to one of the older children to ring the emergency services and then I found a fence post and used this to lever up the roundabout so another child could pull him free. He came out ok, with some bad scrapes on his leg but no permanent damage.
The paramedic turned up about 10 minutes later and politely suggested that I had been lucky in doing what I had done, he was very diplomatic but explained that as I had had no idea how long the leg had been trapped that by releasing it there could have been the possibility of complications.
My sister in law is a trauma nurse and she suggested the same thing as well.
I'm not sure what I'd do if the same or similar situation occurred again, your immediate instinct is to help but without medical assistance you could be making a situation worse.
A bit like not removing an injured motorcyclists helmet unless they start choking or you need to give mouth to mouth.

It's a very tough call indeed.

In this highly litigious world we now live my suggestion is to follow the advice set by "experts"

This situation is a classic example of your damned if you do and damned if you don't

 

[gaz1]

You've got less than 20mins Pete
Half that I'd say maybe 15 tops.
And if they go into shock you've got even less. I'm no medical man but I've been a first aider for 15 years solid and although they change and update procedures every time I renew it the crush injures allways remains a grey area on what you should actually do and the outcome can never be predictable.
No two situations are gonna be the same but if was in a position where I thought I have to release someone I'd always try to apply some pressure (not always possible) between the crushed limb and the persons organs before release. Tie something tightly around it perhaps could buy you enough vital time by restricting the flow of these toxins. The other side of the coin is someone who isn't actually in shock could very well go into shock after release of these toxins into the body.
We can all talk hindsight but how we would actually react in that situation is any bodies guess. The most knowledgeable people in the world could be the most useless if they simply fold under the pressure. I'd like to think I'd do the right thing but if I didn't I can at least say I did the wrong thing but with the right intentions.

also done the first aid coarses and that question came up often as adviser did quote exactly the same its too much of a grey area to whats right and whats wrong

 

[addjunkie]

It's a very tough call indeed.

In this highly litigious world we now live my suggestion is to follow the advice set by "experts"

This situation is a classic example of your damned if you do and damned if you don't

This is almost saying as I was told in the last first aid course I did.

If youve had training, walk away, to avoid litigation.


Sad world we live in

 

[wookie]

One of my colleagues is investigating a crane collapse that crushed the driver who sadly died. His mates wanted to move him but Emergency services advised not to move him. Chap died as a result of the correct advice, equally his mates could have been responsible for his death if he died as a result of THIER intervention. Family are having a massive argument in the courts about this.

The courts should refuse to allow that to even be discussed, by all means investigate the origins of the accident and whether it could have been prevented but the people dealing with the accident (both professionals and general public) shouldn't be held responsible for the guy's death even if their actions may have contributed to it otherwise we'll end up with nobody willing to help after an accident in case they are later blamed for the outcome.

 

[cianh91]

Speaking from experience of a jack failing while under a van 1minute of not thinking can cause this. I had an exhaust snap on one a my vans on a gravel road and without thinking jumped out jacked her up and started at the exhaust till it started coming down really fast only thing that saved me was trolley jack caught on a stone for long enuf for me to get out. I always secure a car before going under it but that one times all it would have took learnt me lesson but also learnt how easy it happens

 

[brightspark]

I just chuck a spare wheel under or a beer crate if my axle stands aren't near at hand . only a fool would go underneath using a jack without a chock just in case

 

[winchman]

This is almost saying as I was told in the last first aid course I did.

If youve had training, walk away, to avoid litigation.


Sad world we live in

No cases in uk case law of litigation against a first aider helping some one out side of a employment role..
If its done as part of your job your employer carries any liability issues

 

[Robotstar5]

One of the advantages of Land Rovers is you don't need a jack to work under them due to their ground clearance

 

[T0rnado69]

i remember back when i lived with my parents,

the shop down the bottom of the road..

the owners son was working on his car outside, car was sitting on a trolley jack, he was trying to do an oil change.
spanner at hand wrenching on the drain plug.
the car slipped off the trolley jack and crushed him.
his dad didnt hear him as the shop door was closed.

its only when he came out to check how his son was getting on
he found him dead under the car.

 

[Keith 66]

My wife came home from work the other day (local authority) with a 2 ton trolley jack, it had been recently subjected to an engineers report following an accident where a van had slipped off it & crushed the driver severely injuring him. The jack was used as evidence in an injury claim which once settled the offending jack was disposed off.
The report accompanying the jack in its plastic sack said there was nothing basically wrong with it.
Strangely i noticed that one off the heavy circlips that holds the articulated link to the end lifty bit was missing.
Im wondering if the engineer missed it!
As for safety with Jacks i was taught at the boatyard by an old shipwright how to jack boats on & off trailers, he told me never ever allow steel on steel (or worse grp) contact, The jack should always have a thin wooden or plywood or even a scrap of old carpet pad between its buisness end & what you are lifting. This is to stop the jack pad damaging the heavy thing & much lessens the likelhood of it sliding if the angle changes due to the ground sinking or other factors.
I still do this today but am surprised how many people dont bother.

 

[DennisCA]

I should cut some wooden blocks like shown on the last page, easy todo with my bandsaw... I got one of these jacks to replace the scissor lift that came with my car (2007 toyota yaris), not an english site but you can probably gage if it's anything to have or not:
http://www.biltema.fi/sv-fi/Bil---M...stning/Lyftverktyg/Domkraft-2-ton-2000038064/

I think this perhaps type of jack is perhaps the most reliable?
http://www.biltema.fi/sv-fi/Bil---M...g/Lyftverktyg/Hydraulisk-domkraft-2000017058/

E: well from what I saw, it's not (unstable and don't lift high), floor jacks like the 1st link seems to be the best bet then. And some good jackstands.

 

[Kayos]

I know 2 people who have died in this way, one personally and one through a forum. When I was 17 a scissor jack collapsed while I was jacking up, never trusted a jack since.

I have done jobs recently and it has taken 10x longer to jack and support the car than do the job, never been tempted to just nip under once