Drains
Yeah, nah.
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- 7,711
- Location
- Sefton, South Island, NZ
No Snowy, by no means am I suggesting the unions are blameless!
What I do think is that contributions for the demise of UK manufacturing came from all fronts. Pre WW2, the unions counted for little and the working man in the old heavy industries had a raw deal. Post WW2, the Unions held sway and the management did little to change things for the best.
I don't think it's useful to attribute blame anyway. Going the "history" route, what you find is that during the industrial revolution and after, industrialists made huge fortunes off the back of poor workers who did 12 hour shifts for little money, with no pensions, no health insurance, no redundancy, no security, poor living conditions etc etc. The unions fought to change these conditions, and succeeded. In some cases, so did the bosses - eg Bournville, Port Sunlight, Saltaire, New Lanark etc.
But the "them and us" attitude didn't change. The unions became largely socialist and upheld the likes of Stalin as a saviour. What a mistake. The bosses continued with a careless attitude, and probably most importantly, didn't know how to deal with the workers, who did hold sway... but that doesn't make it their fault.
I too remember the days when unions had power and abused it. I remember when redundancies led to strikes and strikes led to closures - so every body suffered. I remember when unions and the working man decided that they had jobs for life and whatever their demands, should be fulfilled. Still doesn't make it their fault (we're talking about millions of people here). It's just no use going round blaming the unions like Steve does, when there are so many other factors that lead us to the position we are in now. Thatcher has to answer for many wrongs, but not all of them. While I hate her with a passion, I like to think I can understand why she acted as she did (closing down the NCB, when it was full of viable pits, just to destroy the NUM - pointless and stupid IMO), even if I don't agree with her.
Britain has a history, a rich, deep and complex history. Manufacturing wasn't destroyed in one stroke. In fact, we continue to manufacture large quantities of goods by most standards, apparently, but we employ far fewer people to do so. There are so many reasons for why we are where we are now. I studied history at Uni, and one thing you learn is that there is more to it than meets the eye, that there are multitudinous arguments and theories as to why things happen, and that the reasons for what happens can be shrouded in the mists of time.
Re Japan - people worked for nowt because, I imagine, they thought they were contributing to the Nation. People in the UK stopped thinking like that a long time ago. Why? Probably because those who worked hard never felt like they got anything back (they may have been right, wrong, or just ungrateful b*stards). The culture of grab-it-while-you-can was re-emphasised by Maggie in the 80s. It existed before, for sure.
What I do think is that contributions for the demise of UK manufacturing came from all fronts. Pre WW2, the unions counted for little and the working man in the old heavy industries had a raw deal. Post WW2, the Unions held sway and the management did little to change things for the best.
I don't think it's useful to attribute blame anyway. Going the "history" route, what you find is that during the industrial revolution and after, industrialists made huge fortunes off the back of poor workers who did 12 hour shifts for little money, with no pensions, no health insurance, no redundancy, no security, poor living conditions etc etc. The unions fought to change these conditions, and succeeded. In some cases, so did the bosses - eg Bournville, Port Sunlight, Saltaire, New Lanark etc.
But the "them and us" attitude didn't change. The unions became largely socialist and upheld the likes of Stalin as a saviour. What a mistake. The bosses continued with a careless attitude, and probably most importantly, didn't know how to deal with the workers, who did hold sway... but that doesn't make it their fault.
I too remember the days when unions had power and abused it. I remember when redundancies led to strikes and strikes led to closures - so every body suffered. I remember when unions and the working man decided that they had jobs for life and whatever their demands, should be fulfilled. Still doesn't make it their fault (we're talking about millions of people here). It's just no use going round blaming the unions like Steve does, when there are so many other factors that lead us to the position we are in now. Thatcher has to answer for many wrongs, but not all of them. While I hate her with a passion, I like to think I can understand why she acted as she did (closing down the NCB, when it was full of viable pits, just to destroy the NUM - pointless and stupid IMO), even if I don't agree with her.
Britain has a history, a rich, deep and complex history. Manufacturing wasn't destroyed in one stroke. In fact, we continue to manufacture large quantities of goods by most standards, apparently, but we employ far fewer people to do so. There are so many reasons for why we are where we are now. I studied history at Uni, and one thing you learn is that there is more to it than meets the eye, that there are multitudinous arguments and theories as to why things happen, and that the reasons for what happens can be shrouded in the mists of time.
Re Japan - people worked for nowt because, I imagine, they thought they were contributing to the Nation. People in the UK stopped thinking like that a long time ago. Why? Probably because those who worked hard never felt like they got anything back (they may have been right, wrong, or just ungrateful b*stards). The culture of grab-it-while-you-can was re-emphasised by Maggie in the 80s. It existed before, for sure.
) & her anti-Euro stance. They've still adopted her policies in Germany though 
, he'll sort something out in the new year.
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