Another one bites the dust!

[Drains]

******! Around 1950 the British car industry was the best in the world, leading into the 1960's...and then the rot set in with Labour governments & Unions...'work to rule' etc.etc. We've never looked forward since!
weldequip

Easy Steve. The British car industry was like the motorbike industry - past it's best and on the downward run. As for blaming labour governments and unions - there was very little difference until '79 between Labour and Tory - consensus politics was all the rage. No matter how much the unions were to blame, the corporations and capitalists failed wholeheartedly to look to the future and invest appropriately.

If you want to look at what really makes success -look at Germany and Japan. Their manufacturing bases were destroyed. With the help of the Marshall plan etc, they rebuild largely from scratch, pulled together in adversity and did well. They also have very different mutually supportive structures which we don't. You can't blame a "them and us" culture on only one side.

In the UK, at least until the 80s, many UK manufacturing plants were still based in substantially 1930s buildings. Plants like Longbridge were built piecemeal over 50-odd years. Their inefficiency wasn't just down to the lazy-good-for-nothing workers (probably your words, not mine), but also down to inefficient, short sighted, and complacent management (and everybody else who were convinced the sun would always shine on the British Empire - unions included).

It doesn't matter how much you don't want to admit it, but Thatcher destroyed Britains manufacturing base. Why? Cos she didn't like the unions either. Don't blame the unions, it was people like you who supported her! That puts the blame at the door of Thatcherites (and that may mean you Steve, no matter how hard you work, and no matter how much you, individually, are trying to redress the poor situation of Britains manufacturing- and i'm SURE you are!)

 

[snowcat]

isn't that a tad socialist Simon, are you saying the Unions are blameless then? when I worked for London Underground (only very much as a private contractor) I couldn't believe the clout of the RMT, subbies like myself were regarded with contempt, and despised, they were overstaffed by a good 20% simply because so many people would go off "sick", the management had to back down over a dismissal on one guy who was caught 6 months still off work on full pay apparently who was two sick to work, but could play squash every morning ( a née injury by the way), then the RMT put the whole lot on strike, and forced the management to reinstate em, A bloody great computer should replace all that lot with there 40K pay and militant work shy attitude........christ knows what it was like in the 70s

Your comparing Britain to japan, now is this the Japan who's workers in there last economic crash, worked for more hrs for less money, even no money in some cases, I couldn't see BL workers doing that in the 70s or even now, its a completely different mind set.......I shouldn't think 3 day week and demarcation are words that even translate.....

 

[Drains]

No Snowy, by no means am I suggesting the unions are blameless!

What I do think is that contributions for the demise of UK manufacturing came from all fronts. Pre WW2, the unions counted for little and the working man in the old heavy industries had a raw deal. Post WW2, the Unions held sway and the management did little to change things for the best.

I don't think it's useful to attribute blame anyway. Going the "history" route, what you find is that during the industrial revolution and after, industrialists made huge fortunes off the back of poor workers who did 12 hour shifts for little money, with no pensions, no health insurance, no redundancy, no security, poor living conditions etc etc. The unions fought to change these conditions, and succeeded. In some cases, so did the bosses - eg Bournville, Port Sunlight, Saltaire, New Lanark etc.

But the "them and us" attitude didn't change. The unions became largely socialist and upheld the likes of Stalin as a saviour. What a mistake. The bosses continued with a careless attitude, and probably most importantly, didn't know how to deal with the workers, who did hold sway... but that doesn't make it their fault.

I too remember the days when unions had power and abused it. I remember when redundancies led to strikes and strikes led to closures - so every body suffered. I remember when unions and the working man decided that they had jobs for life and whatever their demands, should be fulfilled. Still doesn't make it their fault (we're talking about millions of people here). It's just no use going round blaming the unions like Steve does, when there are so many other factors that lead us to the position we are in now. Thatcher has to answer for many wrongs, but not all of them. While I hate her with a passion, I like to think I can understand why she acted as she did (closing down the NCB, when it was full of viable pits, just to destroy the NUM - pointless and stupid IMO), even if I don't agree with her.

Britain has a history, a rich, deep and complex history. Manufacturing wasn't destroyed in one stroke. In fact, we continue to manufacture large quantities of goods by most standards, apparently, but we employ far fewer people to do so. There are so many reasons for why we are where we are now. I studied history at Uni, and one thing you learn is that there is more to it than meets the eye, that there are multitudinous arguments and theories as to why things happen, and that the reasons for what happens can be shrouded in the mists of time.

Re Japan - people worked for nowt because, I imagine, they thought they were contributing to the Nation. People in the UK stopped thinking like that a long time ago. Why? Probably because those who worked hard never felt like they got anything back (they may have been right, wrong, or just ungrateful b*stards). The culture of grab-it-while-you-can was re-emphasised by Maggie in the 80s. It existed before, for sure.

 

[snowcat]

I do wonder where this careless attitude has come from, a rot yes started in the 80s, or even prior, but to me appears to have become worse in the 90s to present day, or maybe iv just become more cynical, whatever the average Brit is less than blameless for the current mess, encouraged by the government, to replace religion (just a mete fore BTW I'm not even going down that route) for retail, using there house as a cash pot, now surely when Jo bloggs was re-mortgaging for the 10th time, a bell should have a rang......and has buying the latest flat screen improved the happiness of the nation, IL let you be the judge....

It really has been a B/S economic boom built on nothing but borrowed money at all levels, It was/is only going to end in one way, honestly I think the worse is to come, but the media doesn't help......it spins story's of redundancy's in much the same way as politicians, corporations, Charity's and man in the pub can....... I wonder how many company's were staring at the cliff face long before the so called credit crunch...

BTW anyone know what happened to the magic GDP, surly that was the benchmark for all borrowing, or is the % now too frightening too know?

 

[Muggins the Mug]

BTW anyone know what happened to the magic GDP, surly that was the benchmark for all borrowing, or is the % now too frightening too know?

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=192

Doesn't look good, does it?

 

[weldequip]

It doesn't matter how much you don't want to admit it, but Thatcher destroyed Britains manufacturing base. Why? Cos she didn't like the unions either. Don't blame the unions, it was people like you who supported her! That puts the blame at the door of Thatcherites (and that may mean you Steve, no matter how hard you work, and no matter how much you, individually, are trying to redress the poor situation of Britains manufacturing- and i'm SURE you are!)

Never heard so much drivel in my life man!
Britain's manufacturing was destroyed well before she took over (from the incompetents before her) & she actually played a fundamental role in re-building that loss...by offering very favourable terms to overseas manufacturers (Nissan, Toyota etc.etc.etc)... which are still here today, employing many thousands...they could have set up in Europe but they didn't
Thatcher's downfall & the only thing she seems to remembered for is the Poll Tax (the wicked bitch! ) & her anti-Euro stance. They've still adopted her policies in Germany though
Oh, Merry Christmas by the way

weldequip

 

[londonsean69]

Well, back to the original post......

My firm has apparently laid off some people, but my department is absolutely flat out, we are turning work away because we don't have the numbers to staff it properly.

At the moment I work at designing civil engineering works for electricity substations, and our company has just won a huge project for the highways works on the M25 (my original discipline)

I get offers from agents for work all the time as well.

Both of my uncles are shutttering chippies in London, and 1 was laid off about 2 weeks ago, but that was because the concrete was finished, he's not fussed as he had a MASSIVE win (think 5 figures) on the horses, he'll sort something out in the new year.

The other started with a new crowd on Monday, and there is a good few months work there, so he's happy.

They, and I, have never been out of work in years, if I leave a contract at the end it is generally for more money, and I tend to leave 1 place on a Friday and start elsewhere on the Monday.
I took 3 months off this summer as I hadn't had an actual holiday for 5 years.

In short, it hasn't affected anyone I know personally, although when my van needed a new gearbox the mechanic round the corner from me went out of his way to get the business (I like supporting the small business), and he did an excellent job, but half the time he is shut at the moment, I think more people are doing their own servicing and stuff to save a few pennies.

Sean

 

[English Steve]

I'm not a political animal in any way, shape or form - but ...

The British motorcycle industry was killed off by a mixture of complacency on the part of management ie "we're the best, nobody can do it better", and the fact that 50% of the factory output went over the fence instead of through the door!
I was an apprentice during the late 70's/early 80's and will never forget the three day weeks when the workforce picketed the gates on the other two days. As an apprentice I was contractually obliged to report for work and not be involved in industrial action. The union and workforce knew that fully, but it didn't stop them spitting and chucking stuff at me, calling all manner of names and abuse when I tried to honour my obligations. In the end I had to walk along the beach and climb over the back fence to avoid the physical and mental abuse.
After the strikes were over, they expected me to treat them as if nothing had happened, and carry on as before. Then they want me to pay a proportion of my wages to them, in order for me to work for a company that wants to employ me - dream on. In my opinion the unions rank some way below Pol Pot.

Oh, and while I think of it, there is a world of difference between a Works Council and a Union. I fully support the idea of a group of workers within an organisation who can represent the needs of the workforce in a manner that benefits the prosperity of the company as a whole. If the company prospers, more people will be employed which can only be a good thing. It all falls apart when you start considering individuals above the needs of the whole organisation.

There, I feel better now No offence aimed at anyone - this is purely my opinion based on personal experience and the state of my personal financial situation over the past 30 years in British manufacturing.

 

[malcolm]

About manufacturing decline. I've have it down in a good part to short term thinking on the part of companies and government.

In some companies I worked for everything had to be justified on a payback of 2 years maximum. This was an automotive company making 20 year old products when I joined and they were subsequently sold to the Germans.

I don't think the system of shareholders out to make a quick buck encourages long term strategy or investment as such follies would surely make a company value unpredictable in the short term.

Also I don't think accountants are especially good people to have managing companies. Especially not manufacturing companies. In Germany they are run by engineers with phds.

Even governments can't seem to see past the next election. Just at the moment I wonder if they can see past the next week. Politicians are even worse than accountants at running things.

I'll say again - Clementine for PM!

 

[Wozzaaah]

I'll say again - Clementine for PM!

He can keep the seat warm until Archie's ready to take over .

On a serious note, the company I work for announced the closure of one of it's US plants yesterday, 1400 job losses .
Worrying times indeed!

 

[irondarren]

As a country we are in an awful state of affairs. up to our necks in debt. badly managed even though there seems to be an abundance of managers.
2009 will be far worse, with the latter part of 2010 showing improvement. The question is how do we all survive until then. for my own part in very busy with work chasiing me, not me chasing work, but it can change very quickly.

 

[dutchman]

.

I'll say again - Clementine for PM!

Is she a rabiate right-winger, or more of a champagne socialist kind of cat?



I kinda like those laid back champagne socialists (not the militant unions though). Not a big fan of the egocentric "elite/strongest takes it all and to H with the ones just a little less fortunate" mentality often associated with conservatism....

Many of the management issues Malcolm identified can be related to that kind of behavior.

 

[bill_gj]

Boris Johnson for Prime Minister and Ken Livingstone for Chancellor.

 

[snowcat]

Even governments can't seem to see past the next election. Just at the moment I wonder if they can see past the next week. Politicians are even worse than accountants at running things.

and why would they?? I know that seams flippant, but politicians have no long term thought and zero interest in the future, past there term in power,Ben Gil wasl saying exactly that at a lecture I intended about the environment, and he was certainly no Tye dye wearing, socilist.....

I have been for many years involved in a back seat way with coastal protection, and the only interest any kind of politician has is that houses don't flood on there watch, other than that they couldn't give a S***, funds etc are not the real issue, as there quite happy to shell out a sub to the RSPB to twice the tune on what a rebuild of the walls would be, coupled to fact they could be 100% self funding by utilizing dirty soil, but logic doesn't play, because all the time there playing to the gallery (the media and the public) so a twitchers paradise looks better, than some farmland 20 or so houses and a Timber yard......

Trouble is tough decisions are often unpopular, so looking like a bad guy in the short term, even tho it may be good in the long term, is of no interest in the popularity contest of politics......

 

[English Steve]

The unpopular decisions only ever get made in the first year. After that they start sucking up to the people who will vote them back in.

Having said that, I have some idea of the problems politicians face, albeit on a tiny scale, as I am a Parish Councillor. We have a small budget (precept) which is directly funded from the council tax. This means that if we identify a need for some expenditure, it directly affects the amount of council tax our parishioners have to pay in the coming year. Makes us very unpopular every year, because there will always be someone who doesn't benefit and so doesn't want to pay the extra £1.00 per year.

 

[runnach]

I reckon our politicians should lead by example, the time has come for them, all off them, to take a wage reduction through our current economic.

But no doubt hell will freeze over before this ever happens!!

 

[dutchman]

So.. now how are we going to improve on things?

We can’t rely on the bean counting managers that do not have a clue of technological things. Politicians aren’t going to fix it on their own either, even if Bill’s favourite candidates win (interesting combo though). Good thing is that the country will not go bankrupt having to pay for their hairdo.
Errmm have I not forgotten to insult any other groups involved

Pay cuts for overpaid politicians is a start. Anyone have any other practical solutions??

(btw if you have a golden business idea, I advise you not to blurt it out on here, but feel free to tell me about it in a pm though)

 

[English Steve]

Done my bit

Under the Local Government Act, councillors are entitled to what is known as a Members Allowance. This is to cover travel to and from meetings, telephone calls and general expenses, and the size of the allowance varies across different Parish and Town Councils.
Our Parish Council unanimously voted to not take an allowance of any kind. The only expenses we claim are for exceptional travelling and subsistence outside of our Parish. So, if I attend site for a planning application review I claim and receive nothing. I reckon I spend around 3 to 4 hours per week on Council business, that's well over 150 hours per year for which I receive nothing. I am also Chair of, and a Council representative on, the Parish Plan Steering Group - there's another 2 hours per week (100 per year) and again I receive nothing.
I wonder how many of those who decry the political system and those working in it, would be prepared to donate over 250 hours per year for the good of their community

I appreciate that this is the very base of our political system, but I would like to point out that not everyone involved with politics is a sponger, as I am sure not everyone in a union is a communist!

 

[Muggins the Mug]

I appreciate that this is the very base of our political system, but I would like to point out that not everyone involved with politics is a sponger, as I am sure not everyone in a union is a communist!

It's usually the people involved at the local level are the most hard working when it comes to politics. The big wigs are the ones who cause the most bother in my opinion. Talking about unions, most people forget that Lord Tebbit started an airline pilots union in the days before he was an MP I believe. Not exactly your stereotypical "red" union man.

 

[Archie]

I think Parish councils are a very different kettle of fish to higher levels of Government. People such as my grandmother (who is on her Parish Council and has been for the last hundred or so years ) donate their time out of a desire to see their community develop and prosper. Donating her time to the council is just that; a donation in kind. It is not a job and as such to receive payment would not, IMO, be correct.

Steve, your decision not to receive an allowance is laudable as it is the upstanding members of the community who are part of the Parish Council who must lead by example if they are to expect others not to take what they do not deserve. However, so long as people are honest and responsible, I see no reason not to take some sort of allowance for the costs involved in their work. As I said, I would consider the time to be a donation in kind but it's fair to expect to be reimbursed for travel and any other significant expenses.