Another one bites the dust!

[matt1978]

came out as super-economies No defence budget sapping their wealth?

I think that you might have something there.................how much is our Tridant defense renewal and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq costing again................ (Weather we are right to do any of them things I am unsure of, but thats not my point)

But what I wanted to say, on some of the trips, when we have bought customers over to the factory, we sometimes take them to the Mercedes factory/museum (world headquarters only 30km away in Stuttgart) and in the Museum, they show the history of Daimler and Benz, before they got together and Mercedes was formed blah blah blah, but the interesting stuff is after the world wars, there are photos of Germans with literally wheel barrow loads of riechmarks to try and buy a loaf of bread because the currency had been so badly deflated both times, majority of there wealth was stripped and factorys desamated, so even though they bought it all on themselves, its amazing how and a testement to them that on two occasions they re-built the country and economy to be one of the best in the world!

We (Britain) had the same oppertunities as they did after WW2, in the 50's and 60's we had probably a simerla level of manufacturing and automotive industry, but why was it that all but a small handfull of big factories employing 1000's people and all but a token few car plants have gone and the Germans still have world beating brands such as BMW, Porsche, Audi, Mercedes, VW Bosch, Karcher, Seimans, Stihl, Lorch (of course) etc

There train networks, knock ours into fits, they are cheap, clean, efficient, super reliable...........what have we got??

 

[Drains]

So, why is it then that the two losers of the war came out on top, ie.Japan & Germany??

There's a lesson in there then... lose the war, win the peace.



B@stards.

 

[rtbcomp]

Quote:
Originally Posted by weldequip
So, why is it then that the two losers of the war came out on top, ie.Japan & Germany??

Because we destroyed all their old machinery & factories, supplied them with new modern stuff, and built them brand new factories whilst we still carried on with the old kit in Victorian buildings.

 

[Bobtail4x4]

A couple of years a go a few farmers I know, were complaining about foreign wheat being imported, as we can grow all we need here.

I asked what cars they drove? a mixture of mitsubishis mercs and Bmws.

I replied we make cars here too,
how can the bloke who makes cars here be expected to buy british if no one buys his cars?

he will be out of a job.

 

[dutchman]

So, why is it then that the two losers of the war came out on top, ie.Japan & Germany??

Ehrrm, perhaps because the Japs and Germans found an interesting, somewhat more social balance of sharing the gains and managing the country?
Dutchies and Germans are frequently surprised with the great support for right wing consevative-ism in the Anglo Saxon world.... We are a bit more suspicious of some of the right wing dogma's. Not completely without reason I think, looking at the mess G.W. and his henchman created.

 

[bill_gj]

Get into your air raid shelter now, dutchman, before it's too late. Hiding behind that sofa won't do you any good.

I used to be as Anglo-Saxon as you suggest, but now I leave it to others.

 

[MrFluffy]

If you want to find a real scapegoat to blame for current conditions, take it all the way back to the root cause as malcolm touched on above. (Larger) companies are set up for one reason, to produce wealth. If it doesnt create wealth for the shareholders it ceases to function. There is a huge pressure to return a good return at shareholder meetings to appease this and companies live and strive to achieve this in the short term. So, take at the stock exchange and its systems, shareholders etc.
If the faliure was poor management, then the funds would be put in place to recruit better ones. If it was poor technical skills or lack of manpower, money would buy in the resource and it would find (for the right money) someone with the will and political skills to get rid of the crap ones. If its unions, money will find a answer to that problem one way or another if the will is there. The faliure is inherrently the system to which everything must answer, the root cause, everything must show a return in a short timeframe. And when the belt tightens, the timeframe for a return must shorten too so they can produce tangeable results/costs savings to soothe the nerves of their poor investors. And the higher up the house of cards you go, the shakier everyone looks as one must appoint people below you who will not threaten you.

Problem is what is the cure. I'm personally not even sure there is one. Or even that people could agree it was needed, after all a large amount of city gents do quite nicely over the way the game is set up already, and they have money to fund the status quo...





Now ask me what I think the answer is... dunno to be honest...

 

[dutchman]

There has been a long discussion in my field of economics about what the purpose of an organization is. The Anglo-Saxon scientist like the definition mentioned by Mr F, often accompanied by the negatives mentioned by Malcolm.
I, and many other economist and scientists think that the purpose of an organization should be seen in a broader perspective and therefore its purpose is to create wealth for and manage the interests of the stakeholders. Stakeholders are the workers, shareholders, communities and other parties involved. This discussion is known as the shareholder-stakeholder debate.
Gotta stop here, because otherwise I'd be dragging everyone into a very long and technical analysis, possibly worthy of a PhD

 

[zardoz]

yeah some businesses if they dont bring in big bonuses (and huge annual dividend returns if they are on the stock market) then they are seen as a failiure. Personally as long as my company (if i owned one) was paying its way and not in debt, able to pay wages for the forseeable future, with a bit in the bank for the bad times. Then i'd see that as a sucessfull firm.

(I am talking here of the UK, but it is a worldwide problem of course. I am sure a similar scenario to the one i portray here, was played out in most Western countries as well as not a few Eastern)

It is my personal point of view that the current economic crisis has been brought about by the Tory rush to make us all shareholders in everything we allready owned such as Water (even stuff patently not the slightest bit suitable stock market flotation) People were hoodwinked into thinking that they would all be made rich by bribing them with a few shares, and a culture of "owning shares" was born. All the building societies that would now be inherently stable if they had stayed as proper building societies, are also a big part of the blame. It was them that bribed people with a lousy 2 or 3 grand, while the bosses made millions. The voices like mine voting NO were lost on the wind of greed. I dont however hold too much blame to the working class /new middle class members that voted yes to take the money. A few grand for free. is a few grand that cant be turned down by most working families. Just as the bosses new would happen.

Of those companies now gone to the wall in this recession so far, many i belive would have stood a far better chance if they had stayed in private hands, as a limited company and stayed away from the siren call of going public. Maybe they would not have been able to afford fancy new office buildings, and huge yearly bonuses. But they'd at least be providing emloyment.

 

[malcolm]

I've just been reading about the problems the poor Japanese have been having with their exchange rates:

Against the Yen this year:
USD..down 25 %
GBP..down 60 %
EUR..down 40-45%
AUD..down 45%

Ouch! I've not noticed the price of a nice new Aygo rising from £7,020 to £17,550 recently so someone must be taking the sting.

One for dutchman - how much of this is down to currency speculation? I got fairly annoyed by oil speculators earlier in the year, though media at the time argued that was all supply and demand. Seems to me those greedy guys are still out there and aren't really helping much at the moment. I'm sure they'll get out of the yen once they've ruined Japan.

 

[runnach]

Yep, the Japanese are in for a bumpy ride for sure...............money, the next hypocrisy.

http://www.france24.com/en/20081222-economy-exports-plunging-japan-posts-trade-deficit-

 

[dutchman]

Well, given the credit crisis and trade deficits and blablaberdyblabla, it was long expected that $, Pound and E would go down and Yen would go up. There are some good fundamental reasons for that. Not sure how much of it is driven by speculation at the mo. Very difficult to answer.

 

[malcolm]

If it was expected then it stands to reason it'll be almost entirely speculation.

I've no idea why they don't fix exchange rates. Hardly sustainable for one currency to be so much higher than others. Though for a long time Brits have been jetting off to New York to do their shopping so maybe it actually is. To be honest I find the whole madness baffling.

 

[dutchman]

To be honest I find the whole madness baffling.

Been expecting a messy situation for a couple of years now.....

I find it baffling that so many economists, politicians and bankers held this for impossible, or at least improbable. I guess some were too stuck in their abstract theoretical dogma's and sort of forgot the basics. Proper information was not always provided by key players either....

Fixing exchange rates is somewhat difficult as you take away an important instrument to adjust a countries competitive position.

 

[irondarren]

Several months ago when it was $2 to £1, there was plenty of importing US made machinery. universal iron workers and the likes. not the case now though as its $1.48 to £1, thats a 35% jump in price when converted. if we had any manufacturing we could flood the world with British made goods.

 

[dutchman]

Several months ago when it was $2 to £1, there was plenty of importing US made machinery. universal iron workers and the likes. not the case now though as its $1.48 to £1, thats a 35% jump in price when converted. if we had any manufacturing we could flood the world with British made goods.

Ship some Makita powertools over here

 

[dutchman]

If it was expected then it stands to reason it'll be almost entirely speculation.

Not necessarily.

Expectations of speculators, bankers, industrial players, etc. do play a role in setting a currency price. But the interest rate, price level of goods (ppp), GDP, productivity of labor, inflation, money supply (influenced by the central bank) and the expectations about them do too. Hope you will forgive me for leaving out the mathematical underpinnings. Haven't worked with it for more than 10 years
The way the Central Banks of the US, UK and EU are flooding the market with money has it's effects because it forces our currencies down relative to the Yen (and others). Yabberdiblabberdy blabla, to cut a bunch of corners: I don't think that the steep rise is heavily due to speculators. The other fundamentals mentioned play a larger role, I think... Properly explaining and researching this will cost me a lot more time than I have for now, so I will leave it here.

I am pro speculating by the way since speculating crowds often push things in the right direction. It is their jobto be greedy and I believe regulatory institutions should maintain oversight and prevent unacceptable risk. The deregulation in the US went a bit too far and a bit too quick for the agencies to keep up with. The selfish protect your own and shareholder interest system didn't work and had resulted in excessive risk taking..
So I do not believe the philosophy that complete deregulation is going to create utopia. Ken Lay, the "project/transformation champion" of the public sector in the US ended up in prison because of the Enron affair. Again, properly explaining this will cost a lot of time, so I will leave it here.
Finally I am definitely not a fan of managers squeezing companies solely to create short term shareholder value while neglecting other valuable factors.
This whole corporate governance/free market thing is a bit of a balancing act I guess. The corporate world leaned over a bit too far and all parties involved need to learn the lessons appropriate. Still, this system looks much better than communism.

Pfffrrrrt, I need beer now. Oh no, coffee. It's morning

 

[snowcat]

Interesting your view on speculators Dutchman, Iv always thought much the same, confidence in the market is vital for anyone selling or producing commodity's, supply and demand is not enough to keep a fair price, as large institutions often have the clout to price set, even under the price production, when the stock market gets involved and theres a sudden price spike, it makes both governments and the end buyers to take a closer look at what there doing........

without the markets many small business would end up in a David and Goliath situation, but it would not be David who would win the round....

 

[zardoz]

Several months ago when it was $2 to £1, there was plenty of importing US made machinery. universal iron workers and the likes. not the case now though as its $1.48 to £1, thats a 35% jump in price when converted. if we had any manufacturing we could flood the world with British made goods.

I sell some hard to find Sherlock Holmes dvds on a Web site that sells in US dollars $. So i get a good return when i convert to UK sterling. I expect to be a multi millionaire by the time I am 120 years old.

 

[dutchman]

Interesting your view on speculators Dutchman, Iv always thought much the same........

....without the markets many small business would end up in a David and Goliath situation, but it would not be David who would win the round....

Hi Snowcat, you did not expect that greedy competitiveness part from a half baked champagne socialist huh?!? Bit of equal opportunity (or fair play) doesn't hurt I guess.

I sell some hard to find Sherlock Holmes dvds on a Web site that sells in US dollars $. So i get a good return when i convert to UK sterling. I expect to be a multi millionaire by the time I am 120 years old.

Zardoz, any chance you are in need of a dealership in mainland Europe? I am planning a career change too. This economics stuff is getting on my nerves now.