32a mcb

[Jack Ryan]

its catch 22 nothing in the regs saying you cant fit another manufactures mcb if they fit bad . news is you then become responsible for the design and manafacturer of the said product and have to have the relevant paperwork to prove item so in other words no you cant . both companys are now not responsible for the product

the wiring regulations require all protective devices to meet the requirements of the relevant product standards and type approvals.

Manufacturers only type approve their products for use in their equipment.

If you mix and match manufacturers then you assume the role of manufacturer of the finished assembly and become responsible for the compliance of it.

If you are installing a standard DB then it's more cost effective to go down the type-approved route but if you're making anything custom, like a control panel, then you're already taking on the responsibility for manufacturing it and can mix and match whatever brands you like.

That's ridiculous. It's like saying that Eveready batteries can only be used in Eveready torches.

If that is the intent of the regulations, then the committee responsible needs sacking.

Winchester ammunition can only be used in Winchester firearms?
Oxy-acetylene set can only be used with the manufacturer's gases and consumables?
iPhones can only communicate with other iPhones? (Actually, that wouldn't surprise me)

What is the point if standards if interoperation is prevented?

Jack

 

[Dave-sparks]

That's ridiculous. It's like saying that Eveready batteries can only be used in Eveready torches.

Not isn't, it's like saying that if you use eveready batteries in an Eveready torch then eveready take responsibility if it goes wrong whereas if you put Duracell batteries in an Eveready torch you accept responsibility if it goes wrong.

Winchester ammunition can only be used in Winchester firearms?

No, but if non-winchester ammunition is used and it goes wrong or doesn't work then it's not Winchesters fault.

What is the point if standards if interoperation is prevented?

Jack

Interoperation is not prevented, that's not what I said at all. The standards require everything to be tested and proved to be safe.


If you assemble parts from different manufacturers then you are responsible for the approvals and safety of the finished article, if you assemble parts from the same manufacturer, which are all designed and tested to work together, then the manufacturer is responsible for that approval.

Take a domestic consumer unit for example.
Typically it will have protective devices to bs/en60898 with a maximum breaking capacity of 6kA, the manufacturer will have type tested and approved the whole range for every possible combination of their devices.
Part of this testing and approval is proving that it is safe to be installed on a standard domestic supply with a prospective fault current of up to 16kA and protected by a standard service cutout fuse.

If you put devices from a different manufacturer into that CU, which haven't been tested for use in that way by either manufacturer, then you become responsible for testing and approving that combination of devices.

 

[MetalMonkey]

That's ridiculous. It's like saying that Eveready batteries can only be used in Eveready torches.

If that is the intent of the regulations, then the committee responsible needs sacking.

Winchester ammunition can only be used in Winchester firearms?
Oxy-acetylene set can only be used with the manufacturer's gases and consumables?
iPhones can only communicate with other iPhones? (Actually, that wouldn't surprise me)

What is the point if standards if interoperation is prevented?

Jack

There are standards and there are standards of course.
It would of course be nice for everything to be 100% interchangeable, but I doubt it ever will be as there would be no commercial incentive at all.

The performance of the devices must meet a minimum standard, and they are all DIN mountable.
However, while standards govern the design of the devices there are often subtle differences in the design of the mounting, connections and busbar arrangements between brands.

So while devies from one brand might clip-in to the enclosure of another, it isn’t always possible without some “modification”.
I think this is the main reason why nobody is willing to stick their necks out for anything that isn’t produced as a complete system.

Some manufacturers will certify their products to be backward compatible with thier older designs.
And some components are “universal” and work in any consumer unit. There is usually a lot of asterisks and small print to go with all that though.

At the end of the day there is nothing stopping you mixing and matching if you take responsibility for it, but in todays world, to cover your posterior - it just isn’t worth it.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I guess it's like insurance. Make people frightened to not have it.

In this case, you are locked into buying from the same manufacturer.

Still, if you are happy with that, that's fine.

Jack

 

[Farside]

I guess it's like insurance. Make people frightened to not have it.

In this case, you are locked into buying from the same manufacturer.

Still, if you are happy with that, that's fine.

Jack

Hah, my CU has breakers from two or three makers in it.
I had to be creative with the busbars a couple of times, but no biggie, and it all works.
Next stage is ditch a couple of them and put RCBOs in place.

 

[MetalMonkey]

I guess it's like insurance. Make people frightened to not have it.

In this case, you are locked into buying from the same manufacturer.

Still, if you are happy with that, that's fine.

Jack

It’s more of a case of if you are doing it professionally, its simply not worth the time, effort or risk to save the customer a few quid when they are just as likely to sue you if something goes wrong years down the line.
Ultimately you have to be prepared to stand up in court and defend your actions if there is some incident with something you have worked on.
Irrespective of whether there is any likelihood of it being down to what you did – the onus is on you to prove that it wasn’t.

Its traumatic enough to deal with any situation where your workmanship or judgement is questioned - but if it’s serious, especially if HSE are involved, you will never regret being able to show you did everything to comply with regulations and manufacturers specifications.
Nobody every got fired for buying IBM etc.

 

[brightspark]

Hah, my CU has breakers from two or three makers in it.
I had to be creative with the busbars a couple of times, but no biggie, and it all works.
Next stage is ditch a couple of them and put RCBOs in place.

good for you would you do it for a living i rather think not was listening to a couple of electricians in the wholesalers discussing a firm that fit a new 3 phase board in some offices cabinet by one manafacturer and breakers off another , it set on fire so the firm blamed the breakers who knows could have been loose wires both manafacturers denied responsibility as they didnt design it

 

[brightspark]

clocked the op.s post newlec rcd mainswitch and hager cabinet and mcb volex breakers will fit both makes . id hardly loose sleep over it mind its his own house

 

[Happy Hacker]

A domestic consumer unit to BS EN 61439-3 is rated at 16kA fault current if supplied by a supplier fuse up to 100A. The individual breakers in the consumer unit will be rated at 6kA or 10kA. The manufacturer designs and tests the consumer unit to ensure that the complete unit can handle the 16kA fault current. If other manufacturers breakers are put in the consumer unit there is no guarantee that the combined unit can withstand 16kA. While a fault of that magnitude is unlikely it is possible and by making a multi supplier consumer unit you, as has been stated above, are taking responsibility for the design. If something does go wrong you may be in the dock trying to prove that your design was safe.

I have occasionally installed Frankenstein CUs but they have been in a position where a high fault current would be impossible.

 

[reb78]

clocked the op.s post newlec rcd mainswitch and hager cabinet and mcb volex breakers will fit both makes . id hardly loose sleep over it mind its his own house

I didn't notice that. I didn't do it. Is there likely to be an issue with it? I've got the 32a hager mcb mentioned earlier but wasn't planning to touch anything else there.

 

[Jack Ryan]

It’s more of a case of if you are doing it professionally, its simply not worth the time, effort or risk to save the customer a few quid when they are just as likely to sue you if something goes wrong years down the line.
Ultimately you have to be prepared to stand up in court and defend your actions if there is some incident with something you have worked on.
Irrespective of whether there is any likelihood of it being down to what you did – the onus is on you to prove that it wasn’t.

Its traumatic enough to deal with any situation where your workmanship or judgement is questioned - but if it’s serious, especially if HSE are involved, you will never regret being able to show you did everything to comply with regulations and manufacturers specifications.
Nobody every got fired for buying IBM etc.

I've probably used too much bandwidth already so, last comment.

I understand that you have to do things by the book. I think the book is defective. The regulatory structure should cater to situations where a whole is made from individually certified blocks. Particularly in domestic environments where the voltage and current are modest.

There is no magic, it is more that various manufacturers are taking advantage of a poor regulatory structure. The rest of us have to live with it.

Jack

 

[brightspark]

I didn't notice that. I didn't do it. Is there likely to be an issue with it? I've got the 32a hager mcb mentioned earlier but wasn't planning to touch anything else there.

it will be fine probably outlive me without any problems i see loads at work done it myself in the past and a few in the present

 

[reb78]

it will be fine probably outlive me without any problems i see loads at work done it myself in the past and a few in the present

Great. Thankyou!

 

[reb78]

I was hoping there would be a busbar in here. What's there looks a bit untidy?

Might get a qualified friend to do the final connection and check it over/tidy it up.

They seem to have looped multiple lives across the bottom - is that standard or just making up for thinner cable?

 

[Martinb]

I can send you a small length of busbar for that.

 

[Turbo]

I was hoping there would be a busbar in here. What's there looks a bit untidy?

Might get a qualified friend to do the final connection and check it over/tidy it up.

They seem to have looped multiple lives across the bottom - is that standard or just making up for thinner cable?
View attachment 493066
View attachment 493065

If the terminals on the Newlec rrcd don't line up with the Hagar ones you can't easily fit a buzz bar.

 

[brightspark]

If the terminals on the Newlec rrcd don't line up with the Hagar ones you can't easily fit a buzz bar.

they probably will newlec . are the same as volex which are the same as hager

 

[Turbo]

they probably will newlec . are the same as volex which are the same as hager

I have a box of mcbs rescued from old panels and inside the lid is a list of which ones are a common fit.

Knew that hager and volex were the same, will add newlec to the list.

 

[reb78]

Thanks all.

Is this likely to fit? Cover sold separately.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/british-general-21-way-busbar-366mm/7636p

I can pick some up tomorrow and save @Martinb any hassle posting me some if this will likely do the job.

 

[brightspark]

Thanks all.

Is this likely to fit? Cover sold separately.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/british-general-21-way-busbar-366mm/7636p

I can pick some up tomorrow and save @Martinb any hassle posting me some if this will likely do the job.

yea its standard