Had to cut a wheel off an Alfa today

[premmington]

9" grinder and 7lb hammer, then moved to a 4lb lump hammer and a cold chisel! Plus lots of sweat and swearing!

Another impossible to remove locking wheel nut. Had to use 3/4 socket - breaker bar and scaffolding pole to remove the normal wheel nuts!

Why oh why do tyre bays over tighten the wheel lug bolts so much?

Customer supplied a refurbished wheel at £250

1.5 hours labour plus one 230mm disc, 5 x wheel bolts, tyre valve and weights!

Not a cheap job!

Wonder what the cars other three wheel lug nuts are like?

 

[brightspark]

i allways use copperslip on my wheelnuts i could hardly get the wheels of my van after they fitted new tires a week previous

 

[Mattdiy]

There is a possible link between dogs *mod edit - language* on wheels and seized wheel studs in my humble opinion!

 

[brightspark]

There is a possible link between dogs peeing on wheels and seized wheel studs in my humble opinion!

not on mine they wernt its never parked where dogs can pee on it . it only happened once a bloke letting his dog do it and i offered to rub the blokes nose in it if he ever let the dog do it again

 

[J.B. Welding]

OOOffffff you barbarian!! poor Alfa
And after these kind gents crank the wheels on with what appears to be a 2" drive impact driver, your supposed to take it off roadside with a pressed 'steel' wheel brace as supplied with the car? Tis a joke alright. Funny how the torque wrench comes out after the air gun, never seems to actually rotate the wheel stud at all though does it-I WONDER WHY!!!!!

 

[premmington]

OOOffffff you barbarian!! poor Alfa
And after these kind gents crank the wheels on with what appears to be a 2" drive impact driver, your supposed to take it off roadside with a pressed 'steel' wheel brace as supplied with the car? Tis a joke alright. Funny how the torque wrench comes out after the air gun, never seems to actually rotate the wheel stud at all though does it-I WONDER WHY!!!!!

I really think the problem with this Alfa was?

The wheel bolts were covered in copperslip!

In my own mind, this extra lubricant allowed some idiot with a brand new 1000nm plus impact gun turned up to 150psi (not 90psi) To really wind them in and stretch them!

The copper slip should go the hub face to stop the wheel sticking to the hub!

Wheel bolts should be dry and torqued up by hand!


Modern twin hammer impact guns have too much stall torque now (this type of thing is becoming a industry problem).


We often have to go out and change a wheel now for customers because they can't get the wheel off!

Oh... You are so right Mr JB Welding...

If you gun the nuts up to 700nm then stick a torque wrench on it at 90nm and it goes click, it doesn't mean they're done up to 90.

 

[Bill Edwards]

There seem to be more and more of these horror stories about, and there's no excuse for it.
I understand nobody wants to mess around with a torque wrench, but at the very least they could use a torque stick that'd keep it from going ridiculously tight.

 

[premmington]

There seem to be more and more of these horror stories about, and there's no excuse for it.
I understand nobody wants to mess around with a torque wrench, but at the very least they could use a torque stick that'd keep it from going ridiculously tight.

I have a set of colour coded torque sticks, but I am not sure if they would tame a modern 1000nm impact gun if it was running above the 90psi it should do!

 

[Bill Edwards]

Simple solution, remove nuts on full blast.
Then for refitting, drop the gun speed/power down and use the torque stick that'll be able to work at sensible power levels. A second to flip the speed down, and two seconds to fit the stick...

 

[garethp]

Doesn't the copper in copperslip aggressively react with alloy? I'm sure I read some where recently to never ever use it near any alloy, ie plugs in an alloy head

 

[J.B. Welding]

A few garages have been sending cars back to a local tyre shop for wheel removal, when they are the known culprit for overcranking studs. I recon this is the best way to get them to stop overtightening as it becomes their problem to sort out, the lads soon learn. No shame in it either, like Bill says there is no excuse for banging them up so hard. Doesn't help the customer on the side of the motorway though.

 

[premmington]

We are even stocking racks and racks of wheel bolts now! We change so many now.

We never used to!

On inspection they look narrow in the middle.

 

[brightspark]

in 40 years ive never had a car that ive had problems with wheel nuts either coming loose or wont undo after putting a bit of copperslip on the threads and center of wheels . even on my stockcar and never used a windy gun or a torque wrench even though ive got them

 

[doubleboost]

Just run them up with a "windy gun"
Then use a power bar or a torque wrench to tighten them
Remember the old "spider" six ended wheel braces lol

 

[premmington]

Just run them up with a "windy gun"
Then use a power bar or a torque wrench to tighten them
Remember the old "spider" six ended wheel braces lol

Spider wheel brace is very quick for putting lug nuts on with!

Do they still sell them? Melco was the brand that comes to mind!

 

[hotrodder]

Doesn't the copper in copperslip aggressively react with alloy? I'm sure I read some where recently to never ever use it near any alloy, ie plugs in an alloy head

Copper and aluminium are slightly further apart than steel and aluminium in the galvanic series but a grease with some copper dust in it is obviously different to bolting a chunk of bare copper to a chunk of bare ally with unplated fasteners. Aluminium and 3xx series stainless are a LOT further apart on the galvanic series and while it can cause problems in some environments like marine stuff it often doesn't

I suspect many of the stories about copper grease and aluminium are based on spark plugs and the truth is more involved/about different stuff like conductivity? The internet is probably full of debates about copper vs graphite vs aluminium based anti seize on plugs, most of them probably completely miss the point that spark plug manufacturers have been plating them with an anti seize coating for eons. For example http://www.jagrepair.com/images/AutoRepairPhotos/NGK_TB-0630111antisieze.pdf

Along similar lines in theory the hub face should never be lubricated with anything... the job of the bolts is to clamp the wheel tightly to the hub so that the joint functions kinda like a clutch i.e. it's friction between the mounting faces that transfers the forces not the fasteners which should only be subject to tension. In practice it's less of a deal than lubing the wheel bolts/studs and then overtorquing them 'cause the torque figures are for clean & dry threads. always makes me chuckle when i see a hub face plastered with copper slip and the centre spigot has been left dry and rusty though as 9/10 times it's the spigot and wheel centre register that stick to each other

 

[premmington]

Copper and aluminium are slightly further apart than steel and aluminium in the galvanic series but a grease with some copper dust in it is obviously different to bolting a chunk of bare copper to a chunk of bare ally with unplated fasteners. Aluminium and 3xx series stainless are a LOT further apart on the galvanic series and while it can cause problems in some environments like marine stuff it often doesn't

I suspect many of the stories about copper grease and aluminium are based on spark plugs and the truth is more involved/about different stuff like conductivity? The internet is probably full of debates about copper vs graphite vs aluminium based anti seize on plugs, most of them probably completely miss the point that spark plug manufacturers have been plating them with an anti seize coating for eons. For example http://www.jagrepair.com/images/AutoRepairPhotos/NGK_TB-0630111antisieze.pdf

Along similar lines in theory the hub face should never be lubricated with anything... the job of the bolts is to clamp the wheel tightly to the hub so that the joint functions kinda like a clutch i.e. it's friction between the mounting faces that transfers the forces not the fasteners which should only be subject to tension. In practice it's less of a deal than lubing the wheel bolts/studs and then overtorquing them 'cause the torque figures are for clean & dry threads. always makes me chuckle when i see a hub face plastered with copper slip and the centre spigot has been left dry and rusty though as 9/10 times it's the spigot and wheel centre register that stick to each other

The above is well explained!

Wheels sticking to spigots on cars services by main dealers. Dealers are not taking wheels off to clean brakes when vehicles serviced in warranty period.

I have struggled like F##k to get the wheels off newish cars before with main dealer service history! Sad but true!

I used to slap copperslip on everything, but I am using less and less now!

You can tighten a lubed bolt up tighter than a dry clean one. Fact...!

But copperslip and metal free foundry grease does have its uses!


For brake pads we use special (expensive) lube!

 

[premmington]

Only wheel stud I've had snap was stuck in dry by a previous owner and it seized into place and snapped near flush with the hub...

I always LIGHTLY copperslip them and then torque them up with a torque wrench

Beru up till recently specified glowplugs were to be put in dry...till they got a lot of complaints about them seizing and snapping, since then they have changed their advice to use copper or a similar anti seize compound on the threads to prevent them seizing into heads...

I must have been lucky, thirty years in the trade I have never snapped a wheel bolt. I normally beat the living sh## out of the end of them with a 20mm punch and a 4lb hammer if they are causing me trouble getting them un done!

 

[premmington]

Glow plugs snapping!

I have been there so may times I hate to think about it!

 

[hotrodder]

FWIW the few times i've encountered wheels that were stuck to the hub or "seized" wheel bolts it's on a car i've just bought or when helping out a neighbour. Every "seized" bolt i've mangaged to get out in one piece had been overtightened to the point it had yielded i.e. rust had nothing to do with it. The necked threads were obvious once the copper grease and swarf had been cleaned off...
When wheel(s) were stuck to the hub and didn't come free from a well aimed blow i've always just put the bolts back in but only nipped up and moved the car back and forth a few times... kinda like dealing with a stuck clutch but less exciting than starting the thing in gear with the clutch pedal down and hoping it frees off before you run out of room

I don't do diesels but thought with glow plugs (and injectors) it's less about seized threads and more about a build up of carbon on the end which can turn a simple job into a 3 day swearing marathon?