who carries the can on this?

[Kent]

Ok, just been offered a substantial amount of work, work I do not want to turn down just having started the Ltd company. Not sure if I can or cannot do this from point of view of EN1090 as its more a case of who carries the can for it.

Situation stands I have been contacted by someone I know who runs an agricultural building contractor and steel framed building firm. Has no EN1090 as he says he has done all the research and there is a loophole of "if its done on the farm". I know that I cannot use that excuse but if I subcontract on labour only it has been suggested I might act under his employ as a subcontractor - hence his liability his risk.

I got this suggestion made by a recently retired Engineer within the power generation service and commissioning side at a very senior level.

1. insist he sets a weld test and passes it off with paperwork and undertakes responsibility for on going QC

2. Do not use own plant or consumables beyond PPE

3. get it all in writing

What do you all think yes or no? I am thinking yes as long as my insurer agrees his trade is my trade and as such my company is under his wing and liability?

 

[AndyStobbs]

Who is going to know is what I would be asking? Exactly who is going to come knocking at your door? Does the industry have dedicated busy bodies checking CE marks on cattle sheds?

 

[BrokenBiker]

just keep your head down and get on with it. I have welded up a few 'structural' sheds on the farm i shoot on. As long as the guy is happy with the work and you are happy with the welds, crack on is my approach

 

[Welderpaul]

Really does my head in this. Totally goes against the grain.

Decide to go for it, and there's a very good chance you (and your mate) would get away with it, for a long time. It's well known that the DTI don't have enough resources to be anywhere close to enforcing the whole 1090 shebang.

This (and posts in the same vein) makes a mockery of the government putting something into place to monitor/standardise the actions of organisations designing, manufacturing and installing structural steelwork for which until 1st of July this year any fool could go out, buy a welder and bumble on fabricating structural steelwork to no particular standard other than what he thought was 'oh, it'll be alright that'.

Whether we like it or not; its here.

There's a few ways you'll get caught out...

Another fabricator finds out whats going on (Maybe one who has spent a year getting accreditation and £40K plus getting there.......???) and gets the hump that you/your mate is carrying on regardless. Phone call to DTI and they 'may' come to visit.

Someone who has 1090 looses out on winning the work, finds it's gone to a non-accreditated company and gets all shouty about it to your/their client. (This is happening now - IMO it's almost going to become self-policing to a degree). Clients can't ignore things like that as they cannot insure their buildings without a declaration of performance which can only come from an accredited company (A lot don't know this yet).

It's worth remembering that it is a criminal offence to knowingly put structural steelwork onto the market without a FPC system in place. That means doing time behind bars for company directors? Wanna risk it?

BB, i'm sure you're going to tell me you're a first class welder and 'nothing has ever failed before'...but what happens if/when it does and someone claims? The man with the curly wig will make mincemeat of you. 'Crack on' is really not the right approach these days.

Nothing personal of course.

 

[blenkie1]

Can someone explain EN1090? I did hear that steel framed buildings need to be CE marked to be insured. Did all this come about after a load of farm buildings came down after heavy snow?

 

[matt1978]

Also I don't get the loophole "it's done on a farm" what difference does that make to whether it comes under EN 1090 or not? If it's structural then it falls under EN 1090 regardless of if it's on a farm or not the only diff would be which exc class

 

[Welderpaul]

Also I don't get the loophole "it's done on a farm" what difference does that make to whether it comes under EN 1090 or not? If it's structural then it falls under EN 1090 regardless of if it's on a farm or not the only diff would be which exc class

I think the idea is to try and make it look like it's been 'cobbled up' on site rather than fabricated in a workshop, therefore not coming under an FPC.

 

[BrokenBiker]

I fully understand where you are coming, I am taking the risk and will have to live with the consequences if it all goes wrong, however, that said, the things I weld up are merely to keep the rain off. no one spends any length of time in them and nothing of any great value is kept in them, and I know that's no excuse but its money coming in and keeping the bills at bay. most of the stuff I weld is repairs to existing structures, the stuff I have done from scratch include chicken coops, a pig sty made form galv corrugated steel, and an extension 'porch' onto a barn side door

 

[dan.taylor.1]

It's still structural and I thought on site came under en1090?

I could build my own workshop, as I feel competent enough, but I won't be, I'll be buying the frame and erecting it myself.

Dan

Dan

 

[AndyStobbs]

It's still structural and I thought on site came under en1090?

I could build my own workshop, as I feel competent enough, but I won't be, I'll be buying the frame and erecting it myself.

Dan

Dan

Only a matter of time until the erection will fall under legislation too.

 

[500e]

Some of the steel structures we have seen is beyond poor , out of vertical, lozenged, bolts missing\not tight, welds missing, cleats in wrong place, trying to clad them would be a nightmare we had to take most of a frame down recently that was put up by a steel firm due to poor pads & steel, building inspector condemned footings.
A good building costs but people will go for lowest price, then moan when it is costly to rectify poor work.

 

[Sidewinder]

I thought that MAS had just announced the this would not apply to very small/micro businesses in a last minute U turn?

 

[Sidewinder]

Surely building design, manufacture, erection etc. already comes under statute law in the form of Building Regulations?

 

[Kent]

Sorry my point is I / my company will be a paid subcontractor, it like being an employee in this instance as he is already in the job so it his his weld tests, his consumables,his insurance, his equipment, his audit trail if I agree at present it is an IF I agree. To put things in real time he has one firm that is just prepared to crack on until someone stops them after doing it for years and another who wont and another who is 10k down the line and still not there with it. I mean is he going to wrap up his company after trading for years?
In theory its like being in a shop and taking on BNFL work after taking their test, which I did over 20 yrs ago and many similar, if I had taken the work directly myself and was working on the plant its a different ball game. Its a question of liability IF 1090 is contaveined

 

[Kent]

I thought that MAS had just announced the this would not apply to very small/micro businesses in a last minute U turn?

You got a reference to that? I must add the main contractor seems to have done his homework and its far from a hobby company he runs

 

[Kent]

Some of the steel structures we have seen is beyond poor , out of vertical, lozenged, bolts missing\not tight, welds missing, cleats in wrong place, trying to clad them would be a nightmare we had to take most of a frame down recently that was put up by a steel firm due to poor pads & steel, building inspector condemned footings.
A good building costs but people will go for lowest price, then moan when it is costly to rectify poor work.

I have seen rubbish but its come from very good sources and cowboys. Wanna know about the big beam I was told to Butt weld, grind and paint before morning when the inspector was comming as it was cut too long in the shop, I was perhaps 19 at the time and it was a large well established company

 

[the snooper]

according to the website it applies to all even if the work is free of charge

 

[Sidewinder]

Sorry, misread, it's small handrail firms here:
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/07/02/u-turn-sees-hand-rail-firms-exempted-from-ce-marks/

 

[Kent]

Sorry, misread, it's small handrail firms here:
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/07/02/u-turn-sees-hand-rail-firms-exempted-from-ce-marks/

Ah its already started then, thanks for that. About time we told Brussels to do one all we need is a few in British politics working for us rather than them and their careers

 

[TechnicAl]

There is always someone who knows about a loophole..........usually its someone wanting something for nothing.

There are no effective police for these standards except, in a roundabout way, the insurance companies.

As has been said in all probabilities no one will ever know unless something goes wrong...............its a bit like drink driving.