Removing railings fitted by lead

[baconbarm]

Hi all,

Ive been asked to repair some old railings at a church that someone has drove into and bent.

The builder who gave me the job has the task of repairing the actual wall and wants me to remove the railings as soon as possible.

The thing is, the railings are fitted to the coping stones with lead,

Its something ive never done, has anybody any experience in removing railings from these big heavy coping stones?

Can they be levered out with a big bar, or do I need to melt the existing lead first and do I run the risk of 'popping' the original coping stone with the heat created?

I was thinking of cutting the spigots flush, then welding a base plate for refitting, but it wouldn't match the rest of the railing that isn't damaged.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Pete.]

Depends on the shape of the railing bottoms. If they are fish-tailed or otherwise deformed you might break the stone by just pulling them. Of course you might break the stone using heat to melt the lead. I've removed lead-plugged railings a few times but never with a view to restoring them, I just yank them out with a machine. Some pull out easily, others the stone comes away with the railing. I have to be honest, if you don't want to disturb the stone I would cut the railing off and weld a stub on the bottom of another rail and drill a new hole, otherwise the only thing I could think of is drill a ring of holes around the post to remove as much lead as possible then start wiggling it carefully.

 

[the snooper]

id go with the above, drill out the lead it should remove easily, and simple to fix back in with molten lead, also if you have oxy gear and heat the railing only as close to the lead as possible it should melt the lead with minimal heat going into the stone

 

[gordon stephenson]

What about cutting through the support railings about an inch proud,then when all was repaired weld the supports back together. prepping the ends and dressing up after welding.

 

[Shox Dr]

How about heating the rail leg, causing the lead to melt. Possibly I long process but it might work

 

[cumbriasteve]

I had similar a lot of years ago, was a nightmare, only had six to remove and they are still there.

We drilled, tried jiggling, rigged a contraption to a car trolley jack and the sods never moved, they must have been buried into the stone at least a foot.

In the end we cut them off flush and designed the new railings with post feet that covered the old cut off posts.

 

[Wendelspanswick]

Be very careful when melting the lead, the moisture trapped in the stonework can turn to steam literally exploding the molten lead out of the holes! Face shields and leather jerkins are a must.
Most of the Church work I have done in the past has been governed by ecclesiastical architects who required method statements for all activities that would affect the material structure of the buildings and surroundings.

First ever Church job I quoted for was a removable handrail for elderly parishioners to use on the altar of a village Church. Easy job I thought so put on a low price and got it.
The amount of hassle I got from the architect who wanted to inspect the job at every stage and discuss every aspect of it I soon realised I had underestimated the time involved.
When I saw the parish clerk to submit my invoice I happened to see the bill that the architect had submitted for the same job, it was 3 times the cost that my bill was.
That was when I realised that I was woefully undercharging for ecclesiastical work and adjusted my prices accordingly and still got the majority of the jobs I quoted for.

 

[mfletch]

Seen it done once and he cut the metal posts flush with the lead then used a hole saw and cut the lead out all in one go then made a new post, melted new lead heated the post first then poured in the lead

 

[rich r]

It all depends how deep the hole in the stone is. I watched a couple of chaps remove railings from a local churchyard (similarly to repair a wall that a car had hit) a few years back. They heated the base of each post with a blowtorch until the lead softened, then pulled them out. They were only 10cm or so into the stonework. Then they chipped out most of the rest of the lead with chisels. When I saw them later that day they'd replaced the damaged stonework and were starting to put the railings back in - they melted the lead they'd recovered and poured it back in round the bases of the posts. But I guess if the posts go a lot deeper then melting the lead by heating the ironwork isn't going to work without causing the stone to crack.

 

[normspanners]

What about cutting through the support railings about an inch proud,then when all was repaired weld the supports back together. prepping the ends and dressing up after welding.

That would be my method i think because of exploding masonry.

When I saw the parish clerk to submit my invoice I happened to see the bill that the architect had submitted for the same job,

Thought it was only 'God' that saw everything--------- or is it that, you are not telling us something?,--is that how you get all the church work? ---(me bowing and kneeling)--------HA I dont think!!!!

 

[Shedendman]

Seen it done once and he cut the metal posts flush with the lead then used a hole saw and cut the lead out all in one go then made a new post, melted new lead heated the post first then poured in the lead

Yes seen a similar method done but these guys placed them back with some resin fix they weren't allowed to use hot lead H&E an all that

 

[CompoSimmonite]

Why not tell builder you'll repair the railing but removal and reinstatement is part of his aspect of the job ?
Around here there is a stone bridge that the railing were removed years ago - possibly during WWII. As kids we used to cut out the lead with the penknife every boy carried and took it home to melt and pour into moulds made from things like bottle tops. There were holes in the lead so assume the railing had simply been pulled out. The lead, however, was fast in the stone and we never managed to completely remove it. Today the holes are filled with cement !
Remember lead contracts on cooling so will have a death grip on the railing. Maybe rocking back and forth could be the way to loosen.

Quick Google finds this method -
"we remove and replace lead set railings all the time and we just drill four holes in the lead and then force the lead into the holes then the railings will lift out."

This shows how the bottom of some railing as held -

Paul H

 

[bash'it]

ask king arther

 

[baconbarm]

Some good suggestions there, thanks.

Im starting Monday, il start by drilling and wobbling it around a bit to see if it moves at all.

If it doesn't look like theyre gonna budge, il probably cut it off and leave a 1" stub then reweld the straightened railings back on, the only problem there though is the builder has to ensure he puts the stones back on in the right order.

 

[brightspark]

Some good suggestions there, thanks.

Im starting Monday, il start by drilling and wobbling it around a bit to see if it moves at all.

If it doesn't look like theyre gonna budge, il probably cut it off and leave a 1" stub then reweld the straightened railings back on, the only problem there though is the builder has to ensure he puts the stones back on in the right order.

cut them flush with the cope. center drill and core drill them out quite easy

 

[Shox Dr]

Some good suggestions there, thanks.

Im starting Monday, il start by drilling and wobbling it around a bit to see if it moves at all.

If it doesn't look like theyre gonna budge, il probably cut it off and leave a 1" stub then reweld the straightened railings back on, the only problem there though is the builder has to ensure he puts the stones back on in the right order.

You had best make sure he has measurements, otherwise you might be welding thin air

 

[nickk]

I've used several of these methods successfully & will endorse another one to consider, especially if maintaining original railing spacings is important;make a drilling jig to fit precisely over the old stubs & drill /tap ,then the replacement bars can screw onto those stubs,obviously you'll need to maintain square butt ends to avoid unsightly gaps & most importantly allow plenty of labour time .

 

[gordon stephenson]

Just to stress the safety aspect when re-leading the repaired railings.As said above face shield,gloves apron etc. Any moisture in the holes and that lead and steam comes back out at 1000mph, (ask me how I know) !!!

 

[chunkolini]

To quote the Kids From Grange Hill.
Just Say No.
I would.

 

[normspanners]

Just to stress the safety aspect when re-leading the repaired railings.As said above face shield,gloves apron etc. Any moisture in the holes and that lead and steam comes back out at 1000mph, (ask me how I know) !!!

Reminds me of a job I had to sort years ago the ally castings from nuclear reactors, after cleaning were cut down into 1000kg pieces to go to be melted down for recycling but had 16mm brass studs sheared off flush in them I had the job of rigging a pillar drill to drill out the remaining studs because damp had seeped into the holes under some of the studs deep in the holes, when the castings were dropped into the molten ally and start to melt the pressure build up would cause the studs to rip the threads weakened by the heat and fire out like bullets and had killed somebody. I was a little concerned when I found some greeny blue gell like substance under a few, and contacted british nuclear fuels they came out with their geiger counter thingomy which went off the scale. Which was the more dangerous ? suppose if your killed by nuclear reaction it is summat to tell the grankids rather than i was shot by an ally casting, i dont think they would believe that!!