The future of electric vehicle maintenance

[m_c]

My employer spent a lot of effort on oil analysis last year, due to far too many Stellantis engines going bang.

Some workshops have been changing oil annually regardless of mileage, while some have been sticking to the 18000mile interval.
Analysis results showed no oil samples were degraded beyond serviceable life by quite some margin, and engine failures didn't appear related to how often the oil had been changed, with similar failure rates across all workshops.

We had one sample show high metal content, which I think is now one of two currently parked outside having gone bang.

 

[Bornfree]

Extended service intervals are not ok, that’s where the problems exist, oil changes lets just say BMW as that’s the vehicles I’ve personally been working on myself for the past 30 years.

Extended service intervals have been the killer of these engines, 18000 mile oil changes, timing chain tensioners which may have gone on for a long time…

Failed because the seals on the tensioner have failed, why? Because the oil has 18000 miles, rod bearings on many engines (loads of professional mechanics replaced those and recommended a 5K service interval)

And if Joe Public thinks 18K is fine, we’ll another 2K surely won’t be a problem?

And that’s only BMW, look at the failures on other vehicle manufacturers, I can’t really comment on them as it’s not something I have practical knowledge of, but wet belts, is lack of regular oil changes an issue on them?

I maybe an old git but an engine service regularly will keep it going for a long time reliably.

On time is way too long.

I was skeptical of long service intervals but iam now a convert. In 2016 I got a new citroen relay van and it had 30,000 intervals, I serviced it myself from new using the correct oil at 30,000 miles I ran it for 8 years and 176,000 miles and it was still running perfectly and using no oil between services. I replaced it with the vauxhall version of the same van and the service intervals have increased to 32,000 miles so that's what this will be done at.

 

[GRW]

Both the above posts would indicate then that it's engine design / build quality that is the main culprit

 

[Robotstar5]

Because companies are run by number crunching accountants, and they dont do fixing stuff, so why should anyone else!

I saw an example of that in the 80's, I installed an ABB robot for a month long trial and KUKA and Fanuc did similar, they were all assessed for suitability, ease of programming maintenance etc. The ABB just about pipped the KUKA for 1st place and the Fanuc a distant 3rd due to not user friendly and expensive to maintain/repair.
Accountants only saw the Fanucs were cheaper so ordered 20 of those.

 

[jmp49]

Looking at it clinically, the spec of the oil dictates the molecule chains might survive for a longer period, but it wont remove contaminants and acid that build up and dilute it over time.

@jmp49 Many independents use M-B Star diagnostics, it would probably be less costly to use them or invest in something like Topdon diagnostics that has the ability to read the values and carry out activations.

I think youve just accidentally reinforced my point about locking things down to stop owners working on their own cars Im afraid. None of the 3rd party offerings like topdon or autel can access all of the functions, although certain ones are getting better and cover common inde dealer tasks. Autel probably came the closest, but then they got sued for getting it too close and being able to access the mandatory security gateway etc & withdrew the model.

MB themselves has HAD to open up their walled garden diagnostics solution to 3rd party independants due to legislation forcing them https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2007/715/oj/eng

This has resulted in some new products open to independants that your mentioning,
Xentry Pass through EU, you don't get the hardware for this and have to buy it separately, but you pay a flat fee of 180e per year + buy blocks of usage on a hourly basis.
Xentry Lite, its 1500e a year, you still have to provide your own hardware with the exception of the VCI which comes with the license, and you still have to buy usage blocks on a hourly basis to use it.
Xentry kit 4, or 5 now. This you buy outright and there's no block fee per use, but the price isnt published and there's a vetting process.
All of these only cover post 2004 models because that's what the legislation says "support for at least 20 years...". No more no less.

You cannot as a non main dealer buy a genuine star system covering pre 2004 mercedes now. In fact unless you were a dealership you never could. So if you buy a older car your only (legal) option is to have a dealership do all the diagnostic work on the car. And I've found that a modern mercedes dealer doesnt want to work on your older classic anyway.

And this constant fighting to take away access and rights by manufacturers and making it as expensive as possible to work around vs the 3rd party tools people making coverage when its economically viable plays out every day.
And it gets legal too, copyrights being used against 3rd party software makers to defend the monopoly position they have set up.

 

[Smallfry]

I was skeptical of long service intervals but iam now a convert. In 2016 I got a new citroen relay van and it had 30,000 intervals, I serviced it myself from new using the correct oil at 30,000 miles I ran it for 8 years and 176,000 miles and it was still running perfectly and using no oil between services. I replaced it with the vauxhall version of the same van and the service intervals have increased to 32,000 miles so that's what this will be done at.

IMO this only works if long distances are travelled every day, mostly on motorway.

Long hours stuck in traffic, or short trips will do them no good in the long term.

This is the problem with oil servicing in general though. Using wrong/cheap oil, and leaving it too long between oil and filter changes does not cause immediate problems, its insidious, and sometimes can take years for problems to manifest themselves. Who knows how long your failed 150K engine could have lasted with more frequents changes ?

Surely its better to spend £75 or whatever now and then, rather than have to spend £5K in one hit on a breakdown, usually miles from home, and at the most inconvenient time.

This is my take on it anyway. I get that no one wants to spend money on servicing. Its not very exciting after all, but at least it will hopefully keep the odds in your favour.

 

[premmington]

IMO this only works if long distances are travelled every day, mostly on motorway.

Long hours stuck in traffic, or short trips will do them no good in the long term.

This is the problem with oil servicing in general though. Using wrong/cheap oil, and leaving it too long between oil and filter changes does not cause immediate problems, its insidious, and sometimes can take years for problems to manifest themselves. Who knows how long your failed 150K engine could have lasted with more frequents changes ?

Surely its better to spend £75 or whatever now and then, rather than have to spend £5K in one hit on a breakdown, usually miles from home, and at the most inconvenient time.

This is my take on it anyway. I get that no one wants to spend money on servicing. Its not very exciting after all, but at least it will hopefully keep the odds in your favour.

Your quote "Surely its better to spend £75 or whatever now and then, rather than have to spend £5K in one hit on a breakdown, usually miles from home, and at the most inconvenient time."

But the first owners don't care - they sell the cars/vans on at three years

Most of them "rent them" on lease - and they not there vehicles.

 

[Smallfry]

Your quote "Surely its better to spend £75 or whatever now and then, rather than have to spend £5K in one hit on a breakdown, usually miles from home, and at the most inconvenient time."

But the first owners don't care - they sell the cars/vans on at three years

Most of them "rent them" on lease - and they not there vehicles.

I keep forgetting this. Something I would never do.

My only foray into new car ownership was back in the mid nineties. I learnt my lesson then.

Apart from my little 04 plate van, which I bought ex demo at nine months old, its been "End of life" dailies for me. Has worked out well though.

 

[RWD3M]

I've had a customer enquiry about a
1.0L Ecoboost a couple of days ago - so I cast about for parts, whether complete cyl heads were an option etc.
I found there are recon engines available - but one will cost a punter a good 5x what they cost Ford.

Brand new crate engine is about £2.5k if memory serves. I'll see if I can find the link.

I was looking as I have a Fiesta with said engine and was exploring options should the inevitable happen (I've also got a pre-Nov 19 Ingenium powered Jag but the less said about that the better! )

Edit: Looks like just shy of £3k now. https://pumaspeed.co.uk/product-Brand-New-Ford-Service-10-EcoBoost-Engine_18898.jsp

 

[Ubique]

Brand new crate engine is about £2.5k if memory serves. I'll see if I can find the link.

I was looking as I have a Fiesta with said engine and was exploring options should the inevitable happen (I've also got a pre-Nov 19 Ingenium powered Jag but the less said about that the better! )

Edit: Looks like just shy of £3k now. https://pumaspeed.co.uk/product-Brand-New-Ford-Service-10-EcoBoost-Engine_18898.jsp

Ingenium engines fare better in the Jag because the DPF is close(er) coupled to the engine so unless its just pottering to the shops and the post office on pension day, you shouldn’t get any of the issues related to oil dilution.

 

[RWD3M]

Ingenium engines fare better in the Jag because the DPF is close(er) coupled to the engine so unless its just pottering to the shops and the post office on pension day, you shouldn’t get any of the issues related to oil dilution.

You're right, but the major issue with them is the timing gear that appears to have been made from cheese and chocolate!

Post Nov 2019 cars are generally ok, following the (I think) the third update. I had mine retro-fitted with the new kit (as a precaution) in 2020 and I do an oil and filter change every year (which probably equates to about 8k miles.

 

[Ubique]

Work car park, there’s more behind me (‘the graveyard’), theres about five timing chains to do and a few DC-DC converters in that photo.

 

[Ubique]

When my Launch subscription is up (due for renewal) - that is the direction I going - Topdon - been looking on Hickleys website of late...

Launch & Topdon are the same company.
This is the one I have, got it direct from Topdon for £1200 A lot more if you buy through a reseller

 

[Bornfree]

View attachment 530539
Work car park, there’s more behind me (‘the graveyard’), theres about five timing chains to do and a few DC-DC converters in that photo.

Do you work for MDRS automotive they always have a yard as full as this.

 

[GRW]

Brand new crate engine is about £2.5k if memory serves. I';; see if I can find the link.

I was looking as I have a Fiesta with said engine and was exploring options should the inevitable happen (I've also got a pre-Nov 19 Ingenium powered Jag but the less said about that the better! )

Edit: Looks like just shy of £3k now. https://pumaspeed.co.uk/product-Brand-New-Ford-Service-10-EcoBoost-Engine_18898.jsp

Funnily enough I took a call about a Jag 2.0L single-turbo Ingenium not 20-min-ago!
Car bought from Birmingham a few months ago..... spun a big-end shell. He's bringing the crank in later - I've warned him the last 3 we've seen were beyond regrind & bent.
We shall see!

 

[Ubique]

Do you work for MDRS automotive they always have a yard as full as this.

No mate - about 10-12 of those are 'day visitors', in for MoT and/or service or rebooks for parts to be fitted diagnosed previously

 

[Ubique]

Looking at it clinically, the spec of the oil dictates the molecule chains might survive for a longer period, but it wont remove contaminants and acid that build up and dilute it over time.


I think youve just accidentally reinforced my point about locking things down to stop owners working on their own cars Im afraid. None of the 3rd party offerings like topdon or autel can access all of the functions, although certain ones are getting better and cover common inde dealer tasks. Autel probably came the closest, but then they got sued for getting it too close and being able to access the mandatory security gateway etc & withdrew the model.

MB themselves has HAD to open up their walled garden diagnostics solution to 3rd party independants due to legislation forcing them https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2007/715/oj/eng

This has resulted in some new products open to independants that your mentioning,
Xentry Pass through EU, you don't get the hardware for this and have to buy it separately, but you pay a flat fee of 180e per year + buy blocks of usage on a hourly basis.
Xentry Lite, its 1500e a year, you still have to provide your own hardware with the exception of the VCI which comes with the license, and you still have to buy usage blocks on a hourly basis to use it.
Xentry kit 4, or 5 now. This you buy outright and there's no block fee per use, but the price isnt published and there's a vetting process.
All of these only cover post 2004 models because that's what the legislation says "support for at least 20 years...". No more no less.

You cannot as a non main dealer buy a genuine star system covering pre 2004 mercedes now. In fact unless you were a dealership you never could. So if you buy a older car your only (legal) option is to have a dealership do all the diagnostic work on the car. And I've found that a modern mercedes dealer doesnt want to work on your older classic anyway.

And this constant fighting to take away access and rights by manufacturers and making it as expensive as possible to work around vs the 3rd party tools people making coverage when its economically viable plays out every day.
And it gets legal too, copyrights being used against 3rd party software makers to defend the monopoly position they have set up.

What I'm reading there is someone, or a group, that expect unfettered access, free of charge to a maintained software.
Why do you think that you should get that? Commercial entities have to pay for the privileged - why are you different?
There are initial development costs and ongoing maintenance costs involved to M-B & Bosch, along with the OEM's - Continental for example, all hold copyright on their intellectual property - it'd be like expecting Netflix for free with no adverts.
I did work for an independent with Xentry 4 with an annual subscription, there was DAS available on it - not sure how far back in time it went as the oldest I saw there was 2007.
ODIS access for VWG vehicles is similar, once you're set-up, you can buy access per-brand for an hour, a day or whatever up to annual.

I don't think access is being 'locked down' to stop owners working on their cars, It's more about commercial sustainability and protection of intellectual work. You can't expect a long-since superseded product to be supported by any manufacturer - automotive or otherwise, indefinitely, it just doesn't make sense.
.
The whole argument sounds very..... french

 

[Cato]

No mate - about 10-12 of those are 'day visitors', in for MoT and/or service or rebooks for parts to be fitted diagnosed previously

The service manager at place I worked back in the day used to have three lines of job cards (yes it was that long ago) on the rack.

Out patients.

In patients.

Critical care.

Many from the critical care row ended up in the RIP drawer.

 

[GRW]

What I'm reading there is someone, or a group, that expect unfettered access, free of charge to a maintained software.
Why do you think that you should get that? Commercial entities have to pay for the privileged - why are you different?
There are initial development costs and ongoing maintenance costs involved to M-B & Bosch, along with the OEM's - Continental for example, all hold copyright on their intellectual property - it'd be like expecting Netflix for free with no adverts.
I did work for an independent with Xentry 4 with an annual subscription, there was DAS available on it - not sure how far back in time it went as the oldest I saw there was 2007.
ODIS access for VWG vehicles is similar, once you're set-up, you can buy access per-brand for an hour, a day or whatever up to annual.

I don't think access is being 'locked down' to stop owners working on their cars, It's more about commercial sustainability and protection of intellectual work. You can't expect a long-since superseded product to be supported by any manufacturer - automotive or otherwise, indefinitely, it just doesn't make sense.
.
The whole argument sounds very..... french

If there's "intellectual property" for ignition systems & emissions systems... then (apart from the fact that there are a lot of businesses capable of producing those already) I can see that.

However.... when coded systems are embedded & interlinked into things which can function absolutely perfectly without electronic systems & have in effect been complicated for the very purpose of utilising electronic Gatekeepers to lock out anyone but Mfr Appointed Agents (coding Batteries, Handbrake Systems and so much more)......

 

[Onoff]

Back on EVs...sort of.

I'll need to fit my front & rear dash cam to the new car. Any precautions? Is it just wire into / piggyback off a fuse like on a "normal" car?