Does this technique have a name?

[knoba]

Last year my old van wanted "extensive" welding for the MOT. The vehicle has a chassis and is not of a monocoque design. The job involved; completely cutting out rusty areas, fabbing accurate new panels for butt jointing, tacking every inch and then seam welding them in. Simples...

...not quite! I was getting a bit fed up with it!

So... for welding the non-cosmetic sheet sections (floor panels for example), the MIG was set to approx - 110Amps, 7m/min & 12l/min. Metal thickness is 1.2mm... butt joints. Wire was 0.6mm. Gas was Argonsheild light.

In using the mig on these settings the machine is quite obviously laying down a lot of power and wire. It's laying down a foot of weld in about 3 seconds with excellent penetration & no blow throughs.

It seemed as though the high wire speed feeding into the weld was stopping the high (amps/volts) from blowing it through (combined with a high torch travel speed, and thin wire). What I liked most about the technique... it did an excellent job; produced almost flat weld beads, phenomenal penetration, used barely any gas & took very little time to do.

Does this technique have a name?

I was congratulated by the MOT man (a welder himself) on the soundness of the; welding, job & vehicle! - no advisories.

 

[jugs]

Does this technique have a name?

HSK

Hi speed Knobaising

 

[knoba]

jugs

HSK

Hi speed Knobaising

The HSK procedure was based, loosely, on the "four spring dwarf technique", however, my German's a little rusty...

 

[Chickenjohn]

I know of a professional welder who can do this on 0.8mm steel with no blow through and perfect penetration/ flat bead etc- I kept the demonstration piece he made as somethin to aim for. Needs a good eye and a steady hand. (I have neither!) so I won't be attempting this technique.

I would think it is fine on 1.2mm steel or thicker (floors chassis etc) but on thin stuff (0.8) for large body panels. I'd be worried about panel distortion so would stick to the slower, lower power method. I'd rather spend more time on distortion free welding than have to spend a lot of time filling and flatting!

 

[knoba]

Chickenjohn
I know of a professional welder who can do this on 0.8mm steel with no blow through and perfect penetration/ flat bead etc- I kept the demonstration piece he made as somethin to aim for.

I'll accept credit for good fit-ups and clean metal...

Chickenjohn
Needs a good eye and a steady hand. (I have neither!) so I won't be attempting this technique.

Interesting observation! ...I felt that timing and "hand feedback" were the most important things, if I had tried to visually pre-empt the weld, it would have fell through.

@ all forum members:-
I think it's well worth exploring, especially when it comes to newbies like me, or just for practise. Quite often "play-time" has a low priority with such an expensive and serious H&S orientated pursuit. Indeed, H&S should never be neglected, but "playing" with techniques & procedures, at the right times & places, has a lot to offer in terms of feel, and experience, in attempting to balance the relationship between; the machine settings + material + user input.

I thought it was poignant, with MIG welding at least, how this see-saw type relationship between these three aspects (above) is "open" to greater variation (laying a foot of weld in 3 secs.) more so than it is with TIG or MMA, etc... (maybe one for GeorgeB there... )

Part of MIG welding's uniqueness!

Chickenjohn
I would think it is fine on 1.2mm steel or thicker (floors chassis etc) but on thin stuff (0.8) for large body panels. I'd be worried about panel distortion so would stick to the slower, lower power method. I'd rather spend more time on distortion free welding than have to spend a lot of time filling and flatting!

There was distortion in the floor skins, particularly in the haz areas, but it didn't pose an issue for me, nor for the job in question. What could have taken 2 hours to weld & dress (200mm x 400mm x 1.2mm patch piece) - took 20mins (most of that was spent doing a nice job of the grinding).

@ all forum members:-
The (HSK ... ) high power technique is not suitable for use in critical or aesthetic applications, but it didn't stop me playing with this ratio (machine settings + material + user input) the other way around, in replacing the vehicle's exterior side lower quarters.

Got my van sorted, learnt a lot, and had "fun" doing it!.

What I would like to know, is... Does this "more than one way to skin a cat" scale of variations in the relationship between; user, mig settings & materials, have some sort of designation or name?

 

[Chickenjohn]

Could you put some pictures up? I'm very interested in this. I know it is possible to weld like this as I've seen the results- I notice though that no-one else has taken an interest in this, other than myself and one humourous post.
Maybe folks don't think it is possible.

My mate Martin did a corner weld on two pieces of 0.8mm. High power, high wire speed, just as you suggest, and quick accurate movement. But then he has 30+ years experience and is the best welder I know.

I think if you welded as you say, you must have a very high skill level in welding!

I suspect also, you have an expensive "pro" quality machine! I can't see myself achieving this with my Clarke using CO2 at home, but with practise, I may be able to do it on a pro machine using Argoshield.

Please, some pics.

 

[TechnicAl]

sounds like SPRAY TRANSFER

I dont suppose you know the voltage do you?

 

[knoba]

Chickenjohn
Could you put some pictures up? I'm very interested in this. I know it is possible to weld like this as I've seen the results

OK... you get the time-machine sorted, and I'll grab me brownie.

Sorry John, afaic, it's just a crappy van - there's a thousand threads on resto work 999x better than I can do. Why would I take pics? The vehicle's been sprayed, under-sealed, I've been living in & surfing with it for 4 months since, it's never washed, etc. It's one of my play things!

Welding is a hobby to me and all my tools are toys too (packed away in storage since last years van job).

Chickenjohn
I notice though that no-one else has taken an interest in this, other than myself and one humourous post.
Maybe folks don't think it is possible.

That's possibly because I'm a nuisance.

Jugs is ultra cool though! Some say... his face appears on high value money in Sweden, and that he can catch women with his tongue...

Chickenjohn
I think if you welded as you say, you must have a very high skill level in welding!

Not at all. Disappointed? Me too!

I'm not a hugely experienced guy, I'm not technical or qualified, but what I do have are great tools and a will to find a way to do the job. I compensate (like many) for my short-comings by using the only things I have.

Remember, I'm here trying to find out more about it too!

Chickenjohn
I suspect also, you have an expensive "pro" quality machine! I can't see myself achieving this with my Clarke using CO2 at home, but with practise, I may be able to do it on a pro machine using Argoshield.

Please, some pics.

I have a good machine. Bad tools teach bad habits. Cheap tools make me cry...

Disposables are definitely not the way to go if one wants to experiment and build knowledge. They don't give any scope for play-time.

TechnicAl
sounds like SPRAY TRANSFER

I dont suppose you know the voltage do you?

It was about 110 Volts (not Amps as in previous post). I couldn't tell you if it was spray transfer or not!

That isn't the name of this "altering the procedures ratios" technique ...is it?

-------------------------------------------- Start of exterior panel welding --------------------------

When it came to the exterior panels (trying to minimise distortion), while still playing with the MIG's ratio balance on the other extreme, I noted a few observations.

There are a few things to bear in mind about my van job;

• This was the first time I had ever made any exterior bodywork panels out of flat sheet.
• First time I have ever welded new panels into exterior body work.
• First time I have sprayed a vehicle.
• First time I had ever seriously done any body-work (filling and blocking)
• There were over 40 repair panels to make, and weld in, on the van.
• I don't really care how the van looks, I did the job for the experience.

These sections (below) were done on about 45 volts, 4m/min & 10l/min. Material was 1.0mm - butt joints. Torch speed was very pacey. Even so, I only did an inch of weld at a time, to avoid accumulated heat distortion (& alternating from one edge of the panel to the other).

The weld bead was extremely high and narrow, accuracy along the joint line was the hardest issue, as the penetration area was tiny. A UV pen may well have aided in this.

Having never done this before; I didn't know how far I could go without distorting my hand-made panels. It wasn't until it came to the filling and blocking side of things that I realised I could have gone much further with the welding bead lengths as, there was virtually no distortion in the panels at all. The panels only required a "thin skim" of filler...

I finished the job before I could experiment any further with it.

Still better than the; 5mm spot, cool, spot, cool... process I started out with.

I know it's not a brilliant job, but I'm happy with it (it's getting new rear wheel arches this summer).

 

[eddie49]

The open circuit voltage ( OCV ) of a hobby or professional single-phase MIG welder probably starts at 18v and maybe goes up to 45v for a 240 Amp machine, so I think you were correct when you first wrote 110 Amps - not Volts.

 

[knoba]

Thanks eddie49! Electricity was never one of my strong points...

TechnicAl
I dont suppose you know the voltage do you?

Nope, not a clue!

 

[shenion]

I have found the same. Going slow just invites the edges to burn back and a larger HAZ then blow holes.

Go fast at a higher power and move torch fast. It keeps the metal ahead from heating up as you go so you don't burn through as easily.

I have laid flat beads with my clarke 130 and 0.8mm wire.

 

[jugs]

Jugs is ultra cool though! Some say... his face appears on high value money in Sweden,

and that he can catch women with his tongue...


+ =

 

[Sparkey]

Myeah, i think i'm with TechyAll on this...sounds very much like spray transfer!
I use it whenever i possibly can, cos more power means i can keep up a very high travelspeed! (which saves me time!)
Would the Voltage be the same as on my kit? 23-24 Volts? cos i'm around 200 Amps in spray?

Oh dear! stop flattering Jugs like that!! He will be walking next to his shoes soon!!!

 

[knoba]

shenion
I have found the same. Going slow just invites the edges to burn back and a larger HAZ then blow holes.

Go fast at a higher power and move torch fast. It keeps the metal ahead from heating up as you go so you don't burn through as easily.

I have laid flat beads with my clarke 130 and 0.8mm wire.

High torch travel speed. Spot on! It doesn't always need to use spray transfer though, does it? Do you know if this technique has a name?

...because, the recommended settings don't state the torch travel speed to be used. I wondered if there was a table, or graph, showing the scaled relationship between these two?

(...and whether a speedo was available for a SB 24 Mig Welding Torch -: joking)

Sparkey
Myeah, i think i'm with TechyAll on this...sounds very much like spray transfer!
I use it whenever i possibly can, cos more power means i can keep up a very high travelspeed! (which saves me time!)

Spray transfer & high torch travel speed aren't inextricably* linked together, are they Sparkey?

*...found that word on google.

Sparkey
Would the Voltage be the same as on my kit? 23-24 Volts? cos i'm around 200 Amps in spray?

I'm probably not the best person to ask about that.

You'd have thought someone else would have ventured an answer though...

...especially after all the superb work you put into that wiki!

Sparkey
Oh dear! stop flattering Jugs like that!! He will be walking next to his shoes soon!!!

tbh.. If it wasn't for the playful banter on this forum it wouldn't feel accessible at all...
-

 

[shenion]

Spray transfer starts at about 175 amps in most cases. I doubt you would be getting anywhere near it in thin metal and small wire.

When you do hit spray transfer, the wires peed goes up considerably and the torch speed too.

My Airco only works in spray transfer. I was blowing holes in 3/16" steel (4.75mm) at where it just was entering a stable spray. So, i got the Miller working

 

[knoba]

That's what I was thinking!

If somebody wanted to state this "High torch travel speed" technique in a set of welding procedures, wouldn't it have a name, so the operator knows what is required to complete the weld, rather than thinking that it's a typo?

An example;

1.2mm steel - butt joints;

• wire size - 0.6 mm
• wire feed speed - 7 m/min
• amperage range - 110 Amps

 

[Sparkey]

Spray transfer & high torch travel speed aren't inextricably* linked together, are they Sparkey?

*...found that word on google.

Lol.... yes, i think they are! If you go too slow you'll drop back into dip, and if you go too fast you'll get into globular....

I'm probably not the best person to ask about that.

You'd have thought someone else would have ventured an answer though...

...especially after all the superb work you put into that wiki!

I know, i didn't ask it to you personally....that's the nice thing about a forum there's always someone around who has the answer! (well....most of the time!)
Thankyou! still a long way to go tho!

 

[R Kraft]

I've welded thin things doing what he is doing.
You use settings for about 2-3 the thickness of the metal, and move the torch about 2-3 times as fast.
The welder settings have to be just right and you have to move at a consistent speed.
You can't really control the weld puddle,all you can do is move the torch along the seam.
Sort of an automated way of welding,because you are depending on the machine to deliver the wire and power.

 

[malcolm]

Boo hiss. I never get spray transfer at 110 amps with 0.6mm wire (perhaps 20V?). I'm still well in the range of dip transfer there. Do you not get dip transfer at low volts, in the mid 20s you might go to globular transfer, and high 20s make it past that into spray?

 

[Drains]

Spray at 20v'll never happen, surely? I'll bet Sparkles only gets spray at 23-24 volts cos she's using a fancy weld plant.

My big ole mig's won't go into spray much under 30v, although it's also a product of wire dia and gas type. At 30v I'm all globular and spattery. I've no idea about amps as it's too much trouble to look at the ammeter while I'm welding.

Knoba's thing sounds like spray, but using spray on 1.2mm steel would be a challenge! I reckon he's just welding at higher volts than a sensible person might, has adapted his travel speed to suit, and found that it works!