Munkul
Jack of some trades, Master of none
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There are untapped resources of power in this world with unlimited potential.
- Thread starter Prajna
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Screwdriver
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The learned fool writes his nonsense in better language than the unlearned, but it is still nonsense.
Benjamin Franklin
I can't believe this nonsense is still going.
Prajna
Fixing things for the love of it
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Not only still going but becoming more intriguing. Note there is no input in this configuration. You talk about nonsense but I have yet to hear any reason this device won't work (law of thermodynamics is not a reason, it is an appeal-to-authority, a logical fallacy.)The learned fool writes his nonsense in better language than the unlearned, but it is still nonsense.
Benjamin Franklin
I can't believe this nonsense is still going.
Screwdriver
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No, no, you are the one talking nonsense. And as it happens I have spent some considerable time explaining the precise reason it cannot possibly create energy. Energy cannot be created it can only be dissipated by doing work. Alas, my words are falling on deaf ears.
Oh and while of course I recognise you are parroting my earlier comment regarding your argument from authority (because you claim to be so clever), in reality, you do not even understand the logic of that comment. It is of course referring to someone claiming to be an authority figure, not the lit. authoritative work from the entire scientific establishment!
Since you're missing the entire point regarding force and work because magnets are effectively "magic" to the uninitiated, allow me to share my perpetual motion machine.
Based on exactly the same principle employed here except <drum roll please> without using magnets. I call it "stick theory".
Take a stick. Any stick will do. Now push the two ends together and you feel a "force" which resists the ends being pushed together. Not only that but the force increases the harder you try to push them. Bank that thought and consider the curious situation when you try to pull them apart. Not only does the stick resist with an equal/opposite "force" but that too increases the harder you pull.
Got me thinking, what if I take two sticks, connected via some elaborate mechanism so that as you pull on one stick, it pushes on the other! Then you just need a simple mechanism to alternate pushing and pulling which - here's the clever bit - derives its motion from the work being done trying to pull and push.
According to stick theory either the mechanism will oscillate and generate free energy forever or it will just sit there being a stick.
I'm really excited to see what happens.
I am using "work" in the strict sense where energy is expended when an object is moved over a distance by an external force. I made a pun earlier when I said: "it will energy but it will not work". Energy is not a verb.It is a noun measuring the potential capacity of a system to do work. "Work" is the amount of energy expended as an object is moved with an external force. The other half of the pun is since "work" can also refer to a successful outcome (or not as in your case).
The thrust of the pun being the magnetic force you experience does not do work. The "magical force" you think you can use as free energy is actually just a function of the external force you are applying yourself when you attempt to push opposing fields together or pull attracting fields apart. Exactly the same force you feel when pushing and pulling on a solid stick. Internally, the stick is also held together and resists compression with electrostatic force at the subatomic level.
Another example, a very similar force you can feel, is gravity. Why can't I just use a dirty great big mass to extract free energy? After all, the force you feel on Earth is actually an acceleration. When you hold an object up against the force of gravity, it appears to exert a constant force. Feels a lot like magnetic attraction doesn't it? Well if you want that mass to do work, by definition it has to move.
When it moves, energy is expended. Once that energy has been expended/dissipated - the magnets collide, the apple hits the dirt - no further work can be done with it until energy is put back into the system by pulling the magnets apart or sticking the apple back up the tree. That requires an external force to be applied in both cases. Just like your toy magnet thing.
That one simple concept, the difference between force and work appears to be the thing you are unable to grasp.
I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for any serious science based forum to have to deal with crackpot theories.
Prajna
Fixing things for the love of it
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So what's going on with the magnetic fields and vector forces in the above arrangement?
Screwdriver
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I refer you to my earlier comment regarding the impossibility of magnetic monopoles.
This is a critical issue you need to research and understand.
Premise:
The electromagnetic field is a single entity which permeates the entirety of this universe
This single field creates an interdependency between the magnetic and electric components where changes in one will induce changes in the other
Any magnetic particle must have both a north and south pole.
Conclusion: a plot of a magnetic field must enter and return to it source, thus in any closed system the net sum of any vector plot must be zero.
The interdependency of electric and magnetic components was the stroke of genius discovered by Maxwell and perfectly explains electromagnetic phenomena such as the propagation of light. Those theories have been measured and confirmed via observation to the absolute limit of human abilities to detect. It would be VERY difficult to prove Maxwell wrong without creating an entirely new set of theories - you can't just change or ignore one small thing without destroying the entire body of physics.
...and we wouldn't want to do that now would we?
Dave-sparks
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Actually it is a scientific principal which is generally accepted for many reasons.
You are of course free to propose an alternative hypothesis and prove your ideas through experimentation. If you do prove it wrong the scientific community will welcome your breakthrough and you may win some prestigious awards.
Unfortunately so far you have only offered some cad drawings and a few 3d printed machines which don't work.
Onoff
In the land of the unfinished project I am King!
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Of course the thus far printed machines could be working fine but when fired up simply do so in another dimension...
Morris
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I like it. Static in this reality but causing the zombie apocalypse in the 7th dimension.
Farside
Badly Welded Man
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Hah. Even if it did work, the scientific community would be like the three monkeys.
Prajna
Fixing things for the love of it
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The "scientific community" is not known for welcoming innovation,
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” - Max Planck, Scientific Autobiography and Other Papers (1950)
Screwdriver
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Yeah, he's not talking about crackpots though.
You're no latter-day Boltzmann or Einstein let me assure you and if you want to place yourself on that pedestal, we're going to have a falling out.
Do you even have a crackpot "theory" to explain where this extra energy magically appears?
Prajna
Fixing things for the love of it
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Prajna
Fixing things for the love of it
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Screwdriver
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Like we haven't already!
You have no idea.
tommullin
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Lads let’s keep this civil, we don’t want the thread getting locked.
I think what’s great about this endeavour is that:
1) its never been tried before. No one has ever thought to try this. Literally the first.
2) it’s in a grey area of science. There’s no rules regarding the conservation of energy so we just don’t know.
3) magnetic fields. Again, just a mystery. Entirely undocumented because no one has ever investigated them or used them.
4) he’s obviously trolling and it’s funny.
@Prajna do you have a plan to stop it when it starts? We don’t need another Hiroshima
I think what’s great about this endeavour is that:
1) its never been tried before. No one has ever thought to try this. Literally the first.
2) it’s in a grey area of science. There’s no rules regarding the conservation of energy so we just don’t know.
3) magnetic fields. Again, just a mystery. Entirely undocumented because no one has ever investigated them or used them.
4) he’s obviously trolling and it’s funny.
@Prajna do you have a plan to stop it when it starts? We don’t need another Hiroshima
