VW Tdi injectors, check yours!

[Bobupndown]

My wife rang me yesterday morning to tell me her car was 'sick' and making a rattling noise. I was in work and couldn't come to her assistance and she was about 30 miles from home. She had already driven it from home, and the previous day as well like this, unbeknown to me so decided she was just going to drive it home. She didn't get 1/4 mile before it cut out and wouldn't re start and then told me that it was leaking oil from underneath. I'd only changed the oil last weekend and had a horrible thought, had the oil drain plug come out and dumped the oil wrecking the engine? But I knew I'd tightened properly, I'm always cautious of this. So she rang RAC, busy as usual, we'll get to you ASAP etc. Finally a local garage breakdown truck arrived after a few hours. He took the engine cover off, confirmed that it was diesel, not oil leaking from no.3 injector. He couldn't get it started and said he could hear it was down on compression and "needed recovering". My wife paid £115 extra to have it dropped off back at home. I was expecting the worst at 10 years old and 172000 miles but had a quick look last night. Pulled the acoustic cover and looked at the injectors and sure enough no.3 was wet with diesel pooled all around it. Literally 30 seconds later I found that the bolt which clamps each pair of injectors was loose and you could wiggle that injector by hand. So tighten it back down and attempted to start it but it was obviously air locked. Some googling revealed that these common rail tdi's need to be primed using vcds software to run the fuel pump. Fortunately my brother has this so borrowed it and primed it several times but still refused to start. Ended up slackening off each injector feed while performing another prime. As soon as I had diesel at each injector it burst into life. So easy fix and all seems good again. Pretty disappointed that RAC's subcontracted recovery firm didn't diagnose this and be able to fix it at the roadside.
So long story to basically say, if you have a Tdi engined VW group vehicle, check to ensure these bolts are not loose. This one had obviously worked loose by vibration because until today the injectors in this car have never seen a spanner.

 

[frank horton]

thats all a bit sad........
my T4 1.TD need the top cover and throttle spindle and seal need replacing.......
so far the local quote was €800, guess thats a brit price......
plus another 250 for a timing belt kit and water pump to be fitted at the same time.....
not sure if u can do it without taking the pump off......?
horrible stories of uncontrolled running on start up if u get it wrong......!!!!!!!

 

[m_c]

The bolt will likely have come loose due to it stretching.
It's a fairly common problem on various engines.

I'd strongly advise that you replace the bolts, clamps, and injector washers to minimise the chances of any future problems.

 

[Ubique]

These tend to loosen due to the copper seating washer wearing away due to leakage. - the bolts are stretch bolts so should be replaced. from memory they are 45Nm +90 degrees.

 

[Neilj]

Thanks for the warning, Mrs Neilj has a 1.6 Tdi Golf and I recently noticed two of the injectors had little puddles around them. They'll be getting a closer look ASAP

 

[Bobupndown]

These tend to loosen due to the copper seating washer wearing away due to leakage. - the bolts are stretch bolts so should be replaced. from memory they are 45Nm +90 degrees.

That would make perfect sense. I didn't have them to hand today but definitely worth doing them. I'll get some ordered.

 

[chris pruteanu]

My wife rang me yesterday morning to tell me her car was 'sick' and making a rattling noise. I was in work and couldn't come to her assistance and she was about 30 miles from home. She had already driven it from home, and the previous day as well like this, unbeknown to me so decided she was just going to drive it home. She didn't get 1/4 mile before it cut out and wouldn't re start and then told me that it was leaking oil from underneath. I'd only changed the oil last weekend and had a horrible thought, had the oil drain plug come out and dumped the oil wrecking the engine? But I knew I'd tightened properly, I'm always cautious of this. So she rang RAC, busy as usual, we'll get to you ASAP etc. Finally a local garage breakdown truck arrived after a few hours. He took the engine cover off, confirmed that it was diesel, not oil leaking from no.3 injector. He couldn't get it started and said he could hear it was down on compression and "needed recovering". My wife paid £115 extra to have it dropped off back at home. I was expecting the worst at 10 years old and 172000 miles but had a quick look last night. Pulled the acoustic cover and looked at the injectors and sure enough no.3 was wet with diesel pooled all around it. Literally 30 seconds later I found that the bolt which clamps each pair of injectors was loose and you could wiggle that injector by hand. So tighten it back down and attempted to start it but it was obviously air locked. Some googling revealed that these common rail tdi's need to be primed using vcds software to run the fuel pump. Fortunately my brother has this so borrowed it and primed it several times but still refused to start. Ended up slackening off each injector feed while performing another prime. As soon as I had diesel at each injector it burst into life. So easy fix and all seems good again. Pretty disappointed that RAC's subcontracted recovery firm didn't diagnose this and be able to fix it at the roadside.
So long story to basically say, if you have a Tdi engined VW group vehicle, check to ensure these bolts are not loose. This one had obviously worked loose by vibration because until today the injectors in this car have never seen a spanner.
View attachment 408174

They do rip the threads in the cylinder head on some cases, have repaired quite a few not only Vw !
I much prefer the older ea288 style cr engine with the individual clamps and 2x 10mm nuts, they never come off as they’re spring loaded by the clamps.
Glad you sort it out cheaply and without further damage !

 

[hotponyshoes]

A mate had something where the injector bolts kept coming loose.
We swapped the stretch bolts for a socket cap and put a nut on the excess thread then locked the nut down to the head.
That was a while ago and it seems to have sorted the problem.

 

[Dutch Welder]

Torque is 8nm + 180 degrees on the VW 1.6 CAY tdi.
Doing them up to 45 will snap them, they are only an m6

 

[Colin Barron]

My wife rang me yesterday morning to tell me her car was 'sick' and making a rattling noise. I was in work and couldn't come to her assistance and she was about 30 miles from home. She had already driven it from home, and the previous day as well like this, unbeknown to me so decided she was just going to drive it home. She didn't get 1/4 mile before it cut out and wouldn't re start and then told me that it was leaking oil from underneath. I'd only changed the oil last weekend and had a horrible thought, had the oil drain plug come out and dumped the oil wrecking the engine? But I knew I'd tightened properly, I'm always cautious of this. So she rang RAC, busy as usual, we'll get to you ASAP etc. Finally a local garage breakdown truck arrived after a few hours. He took the engine cover off, confirmed that it was diesel, not oil leaking from no.3 injector. He couldn't get it started and said he could hear it was down on compression and "needed recovering". My wife paid £115 extra to have it dropped off back at home. I was expecting the worst at 10 years old and 172000 miles but had a quick look last night. Pulled the acoustic cover and looked at the injectors and sure enough no.3 was wet with diesel pooled all around it. Literally 30 seconds later I found that the bolt which clamps each pair of injectors was loose and you could wiggle that injector by hand. So tighten it back down and attempted to start it but it was obviously air locked. Some googling revealed that these common rail tdi's need to be primed using vcds software to run the fuel pump. Fortunately my brother has this so borrowed it and primed it several times but still refused to start. Ended up slackening off each injector feed while performing another prime. As soon as I had diesel at each injector it burst into life. So easy fix and all seems good again. Pretty disappointed that RAC's subcontracted recovery firm didn't diagnose this and be able to fix it at the roadside.
So long story to basically say, if you have a Tdi engined VW group vehicle, check to ensure these bolts are not loose. This one had obviously worked loose by vibration because until today the injectors in this car have never seen a spanner.
View attachment 408174

Green flag are cheap and recover in under 1 hour to any address you wish, fantastic service.

 

[Colin Barron]

thats all a bit sad........
my T4 1.TD need the top cover and throttle spindle and seal need replacing.......
so far the local quote was €800, guess thats a brit price......
plus another 250 for a timing belt kit and water pump to be fitted at the same time.....
not sure if u can do it without taking the pump off......?
horrible stories of uncontrolled running on start up if u get it wrong......!!!!!!!

When the timing belt is off its false economy not to fit the full kit of pump, belt and bearings. If you are lucky a seized pump means a top end rebuild with replaced valves and head skim. Unlucky is damaged piston, replaced engine or scrap the car.

 

[Bobupndown]

Torque is 8nm + 180 degrees on the VW 1.6 CAY tdi.
Doing them up to 45 will snap them, they are only an m6

Since done a bit of googling and torque is 8nm + 180° or 270°, definitely not 45nm!
Plan to replace all the washers and seals next week. New 1/4" drive torque wrench and spline bits ordered for the job.

 

[Bobupndown]

After getting it running again I had noticed a slight misfire in 5th / 6th gear around 60 mph so decided to get these changed asap. I tackled the job today, or half of it anyway!
I removed injectors 3 and 4 to find their copper washers looking like this:

and virtually no trace of the rubber o rings on the injectors. I don't know if this was the initial cause of the bolt coming loose, or as a result of the injectors moving because the bolt was loose and hammering up and down.
Naturally I planned but forgot to take any other photos.
So cleaned up the injectors and bores and replaced new copper washers, o rings and seals on the cam cover. Back together and running sweetly.
I'll do numbers 1 and 2 in the near future.

 

[Smallfry]

You should have bought a Renault, but thats another story ..........................

Regarding your breakdown provider. RAC and AA are hopeless nowadays. Too long to wait and have additional charges. Green flag are like a broker cum franchise thing, so whoever attends may, or may not be someone who will have any knowledge or tools to attempt a roadside repair, but theier biggest drawback is that they do NOT cover vehicles over ten years old.
Britannia Rescue are the ones to use. Similar setup to Green flag, but cover any vehicle of any age up 3.5 tonnes and 7.5 metres long PLUS any trailer. They will either fix at the roadside if possible, or recover the vehicle to any UK destination of your choice. They also offer personal cover which covers you and your spouse driving or passenger in any vehicle, which is great for us, as we have a selection of vehicles to use. Cover for myself and SWMBO cost £113. Had to use the service on a couple of occasions and very pleased. Would never go back to RAC.

 

[Bobupndown]

After getting it running again I had noticed a slight misfire in 5th / 6th gear around 60 mph so decided to get these changed asap. I tackled the job today, or half of it anyway!
I removed injectors 3 and 4 to find their copper washers looking like this:
View attachment 410484
and virtually no trace of the rubber o rings on the injectors. I don't know if this was the initial cause of the bolt coming loose, or as a result of the injectors moving because the bolt was loose and hammering up and down.
Naturally I planned but forgot to take any other photos.
So cleaned up the injectors and bores and replaced new copper washers, o rings and seals on the cam cover. Back together and running sweetly.
I'll do numbers 1 and 2 in the near future.

As I'd some free time today I decided to do the other 2 injector's seals as a precaution. Much easier having done the job before. These 2 were in perfect condition compared to the others and really didn't need done making me think the problem was caused by the clamp bolt working loose after all.

 

[Ubique]

They don't 'work loose' they're stretch bolts, so unless they've been re-used it can only be the depletion in the thickness of the copper seal that has allowed the leak to get worse and cause a venturi through the seal, in turn taking more material away. The initial torque (which my earlier post shows a conflation of memories - it's Merc. OM654 that is 45Nm +90 degrees which is an M8 thread not M6) sets the bolt, the angular turn stretches within the elastic limits - some are 90, or 90 + 90 degrees, some are 180 degrees in one go - I've never seen 270 degrees in any workshop instructions for injector clamp bolts - it may go beyond elastic into plastic at that angle. It's essential that the threads are clear of any oil or diesel and are as clean & dry as possible - unless the WSM states to the contrary, anything in the threads in the cylinder head risks stripping the threads or shearing a bolt due to hydraulic resistance.

 

[Bobupndown]

Thanks for your detailed response but the point I'm making is two were shot, copper washer blown, o rings disintegrated while two were perfect and looked like new when they came out. They have all been in there for 174000 miles now. I would have expected all 4 to be similar?

 

[Smallfry]

Thanks for your detailed response but the point I'm making is two were shot, copper washer blown, o rings disintegrated while two were perfect and looked like new when they came out. They have all been in there for 174000 miles now. I would have expected all 4 to be similar?

Not necessarily. It would only take a small piece of swarf of dirt on installation to cause one seal to fail before the others, or possibly different conditions within the cylinder, possibly by an injector spraying a different pattern through wear, to name but a few.

Same really as why does one wheel bearing fail, and the other side go on for many more years ? Go figure.

Like you though, I would change all four seals for peace of mind.

 

[armalites]

Green flag are cheap and recover in under 1 hour to any address you wish, fantastic service.

I doubt they can guarantee that, whilst their service may well be good they claim to be AA prices but when you dig deeper they don't cover vehicles over a certain age and they won't recover a big trailer.

 

[Ubique]

Not necessarily. It would only take a small piece of swarf of dirt on installation to cause one seal to fail before the others, or possibly different conditions within the cylinder, possibly by an injector spraying a different pattern through wear, to name but a few.

Same really as why does one wheel bearing fail, and the other side go on for many more years ? Go figure.

Like you though, I would change all four seals for peace of mind.

Yep, clean, clean & clean again - the way VWG use one clamp across two injectors doesn't help, if you get one injector seal passing, the clamp will 'see-saw' allowing it's pair to leak also. The injectors can lift slightly on compression/combustion - microscopically but still lift, that's how it starts, sometimes because other cylinders are not contributing fully so the 'patient zero' has to do more work, sometimes because of an inclusion (rarely at build) and sometimes because of a leaky injector causing excessive combustion pressure. I've seen a cavity cut in a cylinder head by an injector with a cracked tip - also seen a hole cut in a piston because a Siemens injector failed in the open position, unfortunately it was my car - fortunately it was still in warranty by eleven days...