Adventures in an all electric vehicle.

[bricol]

Got to be careful with the "who needs a big car" type questions . . .

Who needs more than a 2 up, 2 down house?
Who needs a garden?
A workshop?
A welder?
Any power tool at all?

Who needs kids?

Children are the ones who are really going to use the worlds resources in the future. Stop producing more children!

Slightly more seriously - that is part of the reason that, to the best of my knowledge, I haven't assisted in the production of any

 

[DanZac]

I'm wondering whether it's worth going EV as most of our use is about a 5 mile radius with a few trips up to 50 mile when I go to vintage shows, the problem is our annual holiday is a 250 - 270 mile run so maybe hire a "mile muncher" for a week?

And that was the point I was trying to make, it's having the right tool for the job you do 99% of the time, and finding an alternative for the other 1%. And in many cases I suspect that an EV, even with the current charging situation would fill that criteria.

I needed a van a few weeks ago to move a bathroom suite. I didn't buy one to run around empty in for the one occasion a year that I need it, and I didn't sit here moaning that my 206 was rubbish because I couldn't get a bath in it. I hired a van for the day, and if I needed to travel a long way once a year then it would probably be more efficient to hire a car for that journey.

I'm not saying that EV is without problems and there are certainly issues to overcome and address, but that will happen as time goes by.

I'll bet that in 1900 there were people saying I'll not swap my horse for one of those stupid ICE powered cars. They can't go through a muddy field, and where do you get this petrol stuff from anyway?

Likewise I'll wager that there's not many on here that would want to swap back to using a Yankee screwdriver and hand drill instead of their battery powered unit.

The first battery screwdriver I had was utter rubbish though. Battery tech moved on, as it will for cars and vans etc and before long we'll be wondering what all the fuss was about.

 

[cheb]

You don't need to go that far back. Before diesel was fahionable the naysayers droned about it waxing in the winter and the engines needed servicing more often and and and.

 

[atomant48]

That is the most sensible thing in the entire thread. If we just used the right technology for the job we probably wouldn't be in this position in the first place.

The average car journey in 2019 was 8.4 miles according to the national travel survey, which means there's not many trips that need a 300 mile range.

The question we all need to be asking ourselves is "Do you really need a 3L diesel SUV to drop the kids off to school / go to Tesco, or would a small battery EV suffice"?

I'll grant you that there will always be people that need bigger cars, vans, trucks etc, but if we got the people that don't need a behemoth into the right car then that wouldn't be such an issue.

Unfortunately though, all the time the car is seen as a status symbol / luxury item, then thats not going to happen.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/906276/national-travel-survey-2019.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi45qSm87L_AhW6SkEAHb-qD9AQFnoECBEQBg&usg=AOvVaw2HwxV8X8dtPHcK7y_iGsDT

That’s kind of our model - we have a 7 seat Volvo which I’ll make no apologies for (more in a minute) and an EV which we try to use as much as possible. As had been said a few times on here at the moments there significant tax benefits to EVs and that was a significant reason why I got one. But certainly not the only or main reason, and that has been debated to death (then revived then to death again) on here already.

Back to the Volvo I will throw something in. With 3 young kids (no idea if that’s an average family or not these days - I’m sure someone will google it) there are very few cars that will take 3 car seats across the back. Many folk may not agree with this…. But i speak from experience

So there is a chance that many of the “big SUVs” you see about are in fact there by need.

 

[willie.macleod]

Who needs kids?

Children are the ones who are really going to use the worlds resources in the future. Stop producing more children!

Slightly more seriously - that is part of the reason that, to the best of my knowledge, I haven't assisted in the production of any

Well, the whole thing falls apart if everyone takes that view. We need a next generation, and we need them to improve on what we and what our forbearers did. Don't need to go backwards, but we will if we don't have enough of an intelligent population to sustain improvements. I understand not everyone can/wants to have kids, but someone has to wipe your bum and pay the pension bill when you are no longer able. We all have a responsibility to teach the next generation, when I look back on my upbringing and the folk in my life there were a few older childless couples in the village who were pretty good to us as a family and one in particular who set us up with wee practical jobs where we provided the brawn and they the knowledge. Gave us access to his toolshed and in later years when he lost ability to drive access to his car as well.

 

[Pigeon_Droppings2]

Hands up ...my other car is a Hyundai Tucson which is a large ish car. Bought it because I'm well over 6 foot tall and I have a very bad back. It's very handy standing next to the car, sitting on the seat and then doing a spin to get in.

Before I did my back in I used to drive small cars...mr2s, seat Ibiza etc. Those days are long gone for me...if I drove 200 miles in a ford fiesta I'd be done for a few weeks .

 

[Roger440]

And that was the point I was trying to make, it's having the right tool for the job you do 99% of the time, and finding an alternative for the other 1%. And in many cases I suspect that an EV, even with the current charging situation would fill that criteria.

I needed a van a few weeks ago to move a bathroom suite. I didn't buy one to run around empty in for the one occasion a year that I need it, and I didn't sit here moaning that my 206 was rubbish because I couldn't get a bath in it. I hired a van for the day, and if I needed to travel a long way once a year then it would probably be more efficient to hire a car for that journey.

I'm not saying that EV is without problems and there are certainly issues to overcome and address, but that will happen as time goes by.

I'll bet that in 1900 there were people saying I'll not swap my horse for one of those stupid ICE powered cars. They can't go through a muddy field, and where do you get this petrol stuff from anyway?

Likewise I'll wager that there's not many on here that would want to swap back to using a Yankee screwdriver and hand drill instead of their battery powered unit.

The first battery screwdriver I had was utter rubbish though. Battery tech moved on, as it will for cars and vans etc and before long we'll be wondering what all the fuss was about.

You obviously say this from the position of charging you car at home. Or being able to if you have an EV.

The argument falls apart at the point you cant charge at home. Then an EV, regardless of size is a massive step backwards. Given thats over half the working population, thats a bit of a problem

That particular problem simply isnt going to get fixed, because, basically it cant be.

When the supply of cheap ICE cars starts to dwindle, those people will be screwed. They will spend every evening looking for somewhere to charge, at the same time as everyone else. And unless they do that in the middle of the night, they will pay very handsomely for the privilege.

Cheap overnight charging is only available for the middle classes with driveways. Those least able to pay, will pay the most.

 

[addjunkie]

You obviously say this from the position of charging you car at home. Or being able to if you have an EV.

The argument falls apart at the point you cant charge at home. Then an EV, regardless of size is a massive step backwards. Given thats over half the working population, thats a bit of a problem

That particular problem simply isnt going to get fixed, because, basically it cant be.

When the supply of cheap ICE cars starts to dwindle, those people will be screwed. They will spend every evening looking for somewhere to charge, at the same time as everyone else. And unless they do that in the middle of the night, they will pay very handsomely for the privilege.

Cheap overnight charging is only available for the middle classes with driveways. Those least able to pay, will pay the most.

I do t disagree…..or they go the click in battery change out….where you drive into service station, and the do a 30 second battery swap

 

[DanZac]

You obviously say this from the position of charging you car at home. Or being able to if you have an EV.

The argument falls apart at the point you cant charge at home. Then an EV, regardless of size is a massive step backwards. Given thats over half the working population, thats a bit of a problem

That particular problem simply isnt going to get fixed, because, basically it cant be.

When the supply of cheap ICE cars starts to dwindle, those people will be screwed. They will spend every evening looking for somewhere to charge, at the same time as everyone else. And unless they do that in the middle of the night, they will pay very handsomely for the privilege.

Cheap overnight charging is only available for the middle classes with driveways. Those least able to pay, will pay the most.

I fully agree with your points, and I've tried to make clear from the off that I agree that there are still numerous issues to be overcome with EV, the charging issue being the biggest one.

However, from my perspective its a bit like the mobile phone thing. When they first came out they cost thousands, were the size of a small house, battery life was rubbish and the network was unreliable and patchy.

Fast forward 30 years and we've all got one in our pocket with 99% reliability and full coverage, and as the technology matures and the infrastructure catches up (which it will) EV will be the same.

I'm pretty certain that when ICE cars were invented only the rich could afford them and fuel wasn't readily available. We seem to have cracked that one though.

 

[Roger440]

I fully agree with your points, and I've tried to make clear from the off that I agree that there are still numerous issues to be overcome with EV, the charging issue being the biggest one.

However, from my perspective its a bit like the mobile phone thing. When they first came out they cost thousands, were the size of a small house, battery life was rubbish and the network was unreliable and patchy.

Fast forward 30 years and we've all got one in our pocket with 99% reliability and full coverage, and as the technology matures and the infrastructure catches up (which it will) EV will be the same.

I'm pretty certain that when ICE cars were invented only the rich could afford them and fuel wasn't readily available. We seem to have cracked that one though.

You logic is fine. Up to a point. And applies to most tech.

But in this case, even if the cars are 50p, it doesnt help if you cant charge it. Or charging it consumes significant chunks of your time.

I simply dont see a resolution to that. Its not about it "catching up".

All i see is those at the lower end of the income scale, without home charging, being forced out of owning a car. Given that public transport cant possibly hope to cover all the bases, thats going to have a majoe economic impact, both on them, the economy and soiciety.

Of course, other technologies that could power cars, might circumvent those issues. But, oh wait, we have effectively banned them at the outset..................

 

[reb78]

As an honest question and maybe slightly off topic but how many of us make these long journeys on a regular basis that require a "comfortable mile muncher"?

Personally speaking in a previous job I was on the road every day, covering a wide area but still only averaged around 20K miles a year (59 per day average).

Now I commute to work by bike (22 miles a day) and average 5-6K miles a year driving, most of which is made up of short shopping runs and longer weekend trips in my camper van, most of which are still within a 100 mile range of home.

I've 2 sisters that never go more than 50 miles from home (and that's unusual) and of the 5 people currently in the office with me today one commutes 60 miles twice a week, and that's about their longest journey, and the others rarely venture far from home.

I'll grant you we all do the odd long trip for holidays etc, but that's not an every day occurance. So do we really all need a "mile eater" or could the 90% of the population that only do the occasional long trip actually manage with a smaller, more efficient car (not necessarily an EV, but a smaller vehicle)?

Which takes me back to the point that the car is a status symbol, with a big car being a show off point and not a necessity, and until that changes we'll just go round in circles.

I do an approx 550 mile round trip once a fortnight. Often loaded. Sometimes towing a large trailer.

Couple that with the astronomical price of any EV vs a decent second hand ICE mile muncher and I just dont have a choice.

I looked at EVs the other day out of interest. Theres nothing I can afford and nothing with the range or tow capacity I need.

With those distances I dont want uncomfortable seats either.

 

[brewdexta]

EVs dont currently suit everyone, but it will get better.

Prices are coming down as supply now matches demand

Range and speed of charge are improving.

Use of rare earth metals are reducing and new battery chemistry is evolving.

Means of charging are improving. Fewer hurdles, most chargers I've used recently needed no subscription, just a credit/debit card.

Infrastructure is being upgraded, albeit probably not quick enough but that may change.

Some EVs have engine noise effects, just like sticking a lolly pop stick in your bike wheel when you were a kid.

But, eh, let's not end on a positive note. We're all doomed, it will never work, its witchcraft etc etc ad infinitum

 

[reb78]

I wouldnt mind soemthing like the Rivian pickup. Would suit a lot of what I do. But I suspect I will be in the ground long before I can afford one! Start price (In the US I assume) is currently $73000

 

[brewdexta]

I liked the Bollinger pickup, but they seemed to be working more on EV lorry chassis now. The Rivian would do me too but too much money, but I think costs will come down and choice go up.

 

[premmington]

I fully agree with your points, and I've tried to make clear from the off that I agree that there are still numerous issues to be overcome with EV, the charging issue being the biggest one.

However, from my perspective its a bit like the mobile phone thing. When they first came out they cost thousands, were the size of a small house, battery life was rubbish and the network was unreliable and patchy.

Fast forward 30 years and we've all got one in our pocket with 99% reliability and full coverage, and as the technology matures and the infrastructure catches up (which it will) EV will be the same.

I'm pretty certain that when ICE cars were invented only the rich could afford them and fuel wasn't readily available. We seem to have cracked that one though.

My new smart phone is less mobile than Nokias of old - it is constantly teathered to a charger - as battery only lasts two days from new - where a Nokia of old lasted me a week. I get range anxiety with a phone now. Yes my new smart phone does do more than older phones and yes I might be using it more.

@DanZac But you do make some good points above - yes the first ICE cars must have been big money and only owned by playboys and wealthy land owners.

 

[cheb]

When did mass ownership of ICE cars happen? Late 1950s early 1960s maybe. That's a good wee whiley after the ICE was first invented.

Re phones: Turn off all apps and wifi, only use it for phone calls and texts, and then see how long the battery lasts.

 

[bricol]

Well, the whole thing falls apart if everyone takes that view. We need a next generation, and we need them to improve on what we and what our forbearers did. Don't need to go backwards, but we will if we don't have enough of an intelligent population to sustain improvements. I understand not everyone can/wants to have kids, but someone has to wipe your bum and pay the pension bill when you are no longer able. We all have a responsibility to teach the next generation, when I look back on my upbringing and the folk in my life there were a few older childless couples in the village who were pretty good to us as a family and one in particular who set us up with wee practical jobs where we provided the brawn and they the knowledge. Gave us access to his toolshed and in later years when he lost ability to drive access to his car as well.

Why do we "NEED" a next generation?

We don't.

 

[GRW]

When did mass ownership of ICE cars happen? Late 1950s early 1960s maybe. That's a good wee whiley after the ICE was first invented.

Re phones: Turn off all apps and wifi, only use it for phone calls and texts, and then see how long the battery lasts.

The key differences between nothing-bicycle-motorbike-ICE Car progression of mass ownership compared to going ICE to EV transfer/adoption is significant.

Mass ownership of the ICE was largely due to affordability (Model T Ford though kicked that off some 20-years after the Daimler). Also a key difference is not just cost of an EV & its (relatively short life also) lifetime cost.... but that a buyer moving to an ICE (from what they used before) was getting a significant leap forward in real-world benefits.

Right now, in moving from an ICE to an EV - a buyer has to spend a lot more money, to gain a lot of real-world compromises & limitations instead (over what he's been using/is using).

Without the Govt tilting the playing field to hamstring the ICE i.e. whacking up RFL, steadily removing large sections of road where they can be used (ULEZ etc), thus giving the appeal/need for EV a boost (not on its own merits, but by altering the use environment to disadvantage the ICE).... then I'm sure the adoption of the EV would be much slower than it is.

Without the Govt tilting the field to offset the constraints/limitations/costs of EV versus ICE (I.e. if the EV had to compete head-to-head on cost / performance / usability etc..... then it'd be in trouble.

As it is, a lot of people in the future won't be able to afford or home-charge an EV, do their real-world option will be to not have a car at all.

 

[addjunkie]

Why do we "NEED" a next generation?

We don't.

You do, or there will be no one around to wipe ya bum and decide if your getting burnt, buried or composted…..unless weve moved on to soylent green!

 

[cheb]

Granted I was being parochial and only really thinking of the UK. I've read that some countries in Africa and elesewhere have a very good mobile phone network as they weren't held back by a legacy copper wire based system.