Fumin' but it's my fault

[daleyd]

I wouldn't mind it being returned unfitted, but to permanently deprive the owner of the blade is a definition of theft. Terms and conditions do not override the law, nor the Unfair Contracts Act.

I totally agree!

 

[Screwdriver]

I wouldn't mind it being returned unfitted, but to permanently deprive the owner of the blade is a definition of theft. Terms and conditions do not override the law, nor the Unfair Contracts Act.

You sure about that? I don't know the ins and outs of "Unfair Contracts" but it occurs to me that by sending the item in for repair, one is handing responsibility for the maintenance of a device to the company concerned. At which point one chooses to subscribe to the terms and conditions of that contract and if it states "blades will be destroyed" is something the owner has literally agreed under a formal contract.

 

[ajlelectronics]

You sure about that? I don't know the ins and outs of "Unfair Contracts" but it occurs to me that by sending the item in for repair, one is handing responsibility for the maintenance of a device to the company concerned. At which point one chooses to subscribe to the terms and conditions of that contract and if it states "blades will be destroyed" is something the owner has literally agreed under a formal contract.

Yes I am sure. No terms and conditions override the law, which is ALWAYS supreme. Let me give you an example...

You have required me to spend some time in making a response. I COULD issue you an invoice for £100 as my hourly or part thereof rate. I have in my signature, the following...

If you ask me to respond to any communication after 18:00 Monday to Friday, you acknowledge that I am entitled to charge you a fixed fee of £100. You also agree that you will post a response extolling the virtues of my service.

Now do you think that my terms and conditions are such that you feel that you have to accept them?

 

[Screwdriver]

Yes I am sure. No terms and conditions override the law, which is ALWAYS supreme. Let me give you an example...

You have required me to spend some time in making a response. I COULD issue you an invoice for £100 as my hourly or part thereof rate. I have in my signature, the following...

If you ask me to respond to any communication after 18:00 Monday to Friday, you acknowledge that I am entitled to charge you a fixed fee of £100. You also agree that you will post a response extolling the virtues of my service.

Now do you think that my terms and conditions are such that you feel that you have to accept them?

That argument is a non sequitur. You are saying the law "overrides" any contract (although you change my statement to "T&C).

My understanding is that a formal contract is protected under law.

Secondly in order for any contract to be valid it needs to be validated by both parties. Your statement that I owe you £100 is not something I have agreed to and you can't just make it up...

 

[ajlelectronics]

That argument is a non sequitur. You are saying the law "overrides" any contract (although you change my statement to "T&C).

Contracts and Terms / conditions all have to be legally compliant. I could make contract with you for the transfer of narcotics, but it would have no legal validity.

My understanding is that a formal contract is protected under law.

Only if that contract is fair, reasonable and does not contravene the law.

Secondly in order for any contract to be valid it needs to be validated by both parties. Your statement that I owe you £100 is not something I have agreed to and you can't just make it up...

Exactly my point (or one of them). A contract requires a meeting of the minds, an offer to treat, an acceptance and a consideration to change hands before a contract exists. That rule allows a retailer not to honour mistakes in pricing, even if you have paid.

The mere posting of a notice cannot create any sort of contract.

 

[Screwdriver]

So it is not theft then.

 

[ajlelectronics]

So it is not theft then.

@James1979 The crime of theft is "intention to permanently deprive", as far as I recall but I am open to correction.

The posting of a notice that parts will be deliberately withheld is not an agreement for them so to do, in law. I refer you to my previous comment (and that's another £100 please).

 

[Screwdriver]

Hmm. Yeah but the world according to @James1979 is missing a crucial element of that definition.

In legislation “a person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it."

You can shove the other £100 where I put the last one...

 

[ajlelectronics]

In legislation “a person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it."

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, so where are we in opposition? It is (in my opinion) exactly that.

One way that it could be legitimised would be to post a tariff of charges which lists services offered, something along these lines...

Minor service:

Dismantle the device and clean the commutator.
Install new brushes.
Clean and lubricate bearings.
Dispose of cutting blades.
Re-assemble and test.

It would need to be tested in court but I reckon it would probably be fine.

 

[Screwdriver]

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, so where are we in opposition? It is (in my opinion) exactly that.

One way that it could be legitimised would be to post a tariff of charges which lists services offered, something along these lines...

Well it was just this bit:

I wouldn't mind it being returned unfitted, but to permanently deprive the owner of the blade is a definition of theft. Terms and conditions do not override the law, nor the Unfair Contracts Act.

Which I disagree with and you sort of doubled down on it.

According to the OP, he signed a receipt which confirmed that any blade would be removed and disposed of. That is a written contract to which the OP has agreed. Plus there is apparently a sign in the shop which would form part of a non-verbal contract if there is any dispute.

It would be interesting if <some other similar shop> kept the items under the same contract but went on to sell the blades secondhand. I suspect that would constitute fraud which is a LOT more serious.

One needs to be careful throwing legal terms around. I once had <an issue> with an item I bought off eBay and the seller offered to repair it for a price. I casually accused him of racketeering and he went ballistic!

 

[ajlelectronics]

One needs to be careful throwing legal terms around. I once had <an issue> with an item I bought off eBay and the seller offered to repair it for a price. I casually accused him of racketeering and he went ballistic!

You don't know me and my record very well. I don't throw words around, I either use my long experience in matters of civil contract law or I check up on it. I have been in retail for 40 years and so I have to keep on top of it. Add to that a dozen or more small claims cases that I have won and I believe that I know a little about the subject. Those going "ballistic" don't faze me in the slightest, they are usually the ones with something to hide.

 

[Screwdriver]

Ah. That comment wasn't aimed at you. Someone else was using the word "theft" before you. That is why I said "one" needs to which sounds a bit poncy but is meant to depersonalise the commentary (I am trying to be nice!).

You will be unsurprised to learn I too have a large number of successful legal claims behind me...

 

[Bravheart]

Interesting if @ajlelectronics is right and it appears that he may be then by confiscating the blade the shop has broken the law but if he hands the blade back he has broken the terms of his insurance policy and laying him open to huge claims. If the op reported the alleged theft I would assume PC wouldn't be too interested and at best issue a crime number. With this number the op could then carry out an insurance claim against the repair shop!!!

Aww go on @Gareth0123 just out of interest, I dare you let's see who's the strongest.


Also trying to compare it to other repair shops and specifically tyre fitters not only do they remove and replace the rubber on the vehicle and keep the old tyres because they are not legal any more but they actually charge you to keep the old tyres which they then sell on again. That then must be grand theft auto with bells on.

 

[Screwdriver]

Yebbut, he's not right...

 

[eLuSiVeMiTe]

Unless they can prove the blade was faulty and needed to be disposed of there's no reason it can't be returned in a package marked use at own risk.

 

[Screwdriver]

Unless they can prove the blade was faulty and needed to be disposed of there's no reason it can't be returned in a package marked use at own risk.

That is true in every practical sense but the chap performing the work is insured and his insurance insist that the blade is destroyed/disposed of.

One imagines that they could simply insist it is returned separately though I can think of many ways that could end up in court. But the fact of the matter is that they don't allow for it and it is down to the customer to decide whether or not to remove the blade prior to sending it in.

I would be horrified if that happened to me of course. I would fully expect the service centre to TELL me explicitly what they are about to do. Especially if it is a nice blade. Then again, what if the customer says "oh right" whips it off at the shop and promptly slices off a chunk of flesh...

 

[eLuSiVeMiTe]

That is true in every practical sense but the chap performing the work is insured and his insurance insist that the blade is destroyed/disposed of.

One imagines that they could simply insist it is returned separately though I can think of many ways that could end up in court. But the fact of the matter is that they don't allow for it and it is down to the customer to decide whether or not to remove the blade prior to sending it in.

I would be horrified if that happened to me of course. I would fully expect the service centre to TELL me explicitly what they are about to do. Especially if it is a nice blade. Then again, what if the customer says "oh right" whips it off at the shop and promptly slices off a chunk of flesh...

Then he needs to grow a backbone and stop letting someone without a clue dictate his work practices.

He's supposed to be a fin professional yet he can't be trusted to safety check and install a blade.


Wonder if his insurance will let him fit a new blade

 

[ajlelectronics]

That is true in every practical sense but the chap performing the work is insured and his insurance insist that the blade is destroyed/disposed of.

That is between the retailer and his insurance company and not the customer's problem. Those terms are unreasonable and should not be visited upon the innocent third party who will be permanently and dishonestly, deprived of his property. That is absent a proper contract after meeting of the minds. We have already agreed that it is not possible to create a unilateral contract.

One imagines that they could simply insist it is returned separately though I can think of many ways that could end up in court. But the fact of the matter is that they don't allow for it and it is down to the customer to decide whether or not to remove the blade prior to sending it in.

I still maintain that unless there is a explicit agreement between the parties, it meets the definition of theft. No notices or small print text on a form can legitimise that.

I would be horrified if that happened to me of course. I would fully expect the service centre to TELL me explicitly what they are about to do. Especially if it is a nice blade. Then again, what if the customer says "oh right" whips it off at the shop and promptly slices off a chunk of flesh...

I would also be taking issue with the fact that the equipment cannot be tested, nor setup properly without its blade. The owner has already demonstrated that he knows how to use it and once it leaves the premises, it is purely the risk of the customer. The blades are fitted to a new product so the "reasoning" is nonsense.

There are plenty of ways to protect the blade during transport should there be any risk.