Energy prices.

[daleyd]

How come the new reactors all go over budget and have these problems? The old ones built back in the 50s and 60s have run for almost 50 years quite safely. Makes you wonder eh?

Erm - you might need a bit more research.

Below - from Wikipedia about the agr second gen design…

The lead station, Dungeness B was ordered in 1965 with a target completion date of 1970. After problems with nearly every aspect of the reactor design it finally began generating electricity in 1983, 13 years late.

To be fair follow on ones were better but it’s far from a new phenomenon.

 

[Farside]

Wasn't nuclear energy supposed to be....... ahem...... "Too cheap to meter"?

Did you see the size of the meter, though? Somebody had to pay for that.

 

[fizzy]

Erm - you might need a bit more research.

Below - from Wikipedia about the agr second gen design…

The lead station, Dungeness B was ordered in 1965 with a target completion date of 1970. After problems with nearly every aspect of the reactor design it finally began generating electricity in 1983, 13 years late.

To be fair follow on ones were better but it’s far from a new phenomenon.

Most of the designs were very new back then. After 60 odd years you would think they had learnt by now!

 

[DAPPH]

How come the new reactors all go over budget and have these problems? The old ones built back in the 50s and 60s have run for almost 50 years quite safely. Makes you wonder eh?

If you had a crystal ball with Duracell batteries you might have a better indication of costs 12 years ahead of the original estimates .. all manner of global events bump up the costs especially wages & materials .

 

[Gareth J]

They are having problems because of a lack of investment. They started thinking perhaps they should get wind and solar. Now they have seen the light - mainly because of Ukraine of course.

Nuclear Power in France - World Nuclear Association

France derives about 70% of its electricity from nuclear energy. This is due to a long-standing policy based on energy security. France is the world's largest net exporter of electricity due to its very low cost of nuclear generation.

world-nuclear.org

• France derives about 70% of its electricity from nuclear energy, due to a long-standing policy based on energy security.
• Government policy, set under a former administration in 2014, aimed to reduce nuclear's share of electricity generation to 50% by 2025. This target was delayed in 2019 to 2035.
• In February 2022 France announced plans to build six new reactors and to consider building a further eight.
• France is the world's largest net exporter of electricity due to its very low cost of generation, and gains over €3 billion per year from this.
• The country has been very active in developing nuclear technology. Reactors and especially fuel products and services have been a significant export.
• About 17% of France's electricity is from recycled nuclear fuel.

Notice the comment about France being the World's largest exporter of electricity due to low costs of generation! Nuclear can't be all bad can it?

Nowhere on that website does it mention what those "low costs of generation" actually are. If they are that low, we are being well and truly shafted for all the nuclear we have agreed to. That's not to say that it's not worth the expense. But cheap it is not.

 

[fizzy]

Nowhere on that website does it mention what those "low costs of generation" actually are. If they are that low, we are being well and truly shafted for all the nuclear we have agreed to. That's not to say that it's not worth the expense. But cheap it is not.

France gets most of its power from nuclear.
Hence they sell it cheap.
We only get about 15% of our electricity from nuclear. Today gas is running at 45%. Hence ours is expensive.

 

[Mikes]

Surely it's Hobson's choice at the moment. Since the wind doesn't always blow and the sun always shine we need a source which is capable of meeting a large chunk of the load regardless of weather conditions. I'm sure in years to come the boffins will find other low carbon sources but until then nuclear looks our best choice. As electrical demand increases, we need to be planning ahead a lot more quickly than we do currently. Always seems that unpopular decisions are put off for fear of losing votes. Perhaps major infrastructure projects could be dealt with by a non government organisation. Unfortunately with Hobson's choice you have to pay the going rate.

 

[premmington]

France gets most of its power from nuclear.
Hence they sell it cheap.
We only get about 15% of our electricity from nuclear. Today gas is running at 45%. Hence ours is expensive.

Nuclear power plants with carbon dioxide turbines. Are smaller and cheap than water cooled steam reactors of the past.

I think we really gotta build Nuclear plants with a longer lifecycle to them - to make the energy cheaper.

 

[daleyd]

Nuclear power plants with carbon dioxide turbines. Are smaller and cheap than water cooled steam reactors of the past.

I think we really gotta build Nuclear plants with a longer lifecycle to them - to make the energy cheaper.

Probably easier said than done - the current issue with the french plants has come about because they have extended the lifespan from the original 30 years and they are having to have more frequent inspections…

Also worth nothing that a lot (all?) of their plants have been financed by the state and are now getting quite old. The true costs of the construction of these has been difficult to find out, as they have historically manipulated budgets to hide the true costs. The true cost of french energy is hard to determine as it’s so heavily subsidised by the state - they would be facing similar price rises to us had their government not basically told (the mostly state owned) edf to absorb the costs.

If nuclear was such a cheap way of generating electricity surely there would be loads of private companies ploughing money into the construction and running of plants…the fact there isn’t tells you it probably isn’t all that cheap.

It’s not a bad thing, it serves a purpose - we just shouldn’t pretend its cheap when it isn’t by the time you add up all the costs (including the hidden ones)…

It’s needed, for sure, but it’s not the answer to every problem.

 

[fizzy]

Probably easier said than done - the current issue with the french plants has come about because they have extended the lifespan from the original 30 years and they are having to have more frequent inspections…

Also worth nothing that a lot (all?) of their plants have been financed by the state and are now getting quite old. The true costs of the construction of these has been difficult to find out, as they have historically manipulated budgets to hide the true costs. The true cost of french energy is hard to determine as it’s so heavily subsidised by the state - they would be facing similar price rises to us had their government not basically told (the mostly state owned) edf to absorb the costs.

If nuclear was such a cheap way of generating electricity surely there would be loads of private companies ploughing money into the construction and running of plants…the fact there isn’t tells you it probably isn’t all that cheap.

It’s not a bad thing, it serves a purpose - we just shouldn’t pretend its cheap when it isn’t by the time you add up all the costs (including the hidden ones)…

It’s needed, for sure, but it’s not the answer to every problem.

Except for the Rolls Royce SMRs and many other smaller reactors planned around the World.
I suspect they aren't as efficient as the huge plants but certainly cheaper and quicker to build and seemingly less politically sensitive.

 

[daleyd]

Except for the Rolls Royce SMRs and many other smaller reactors planned around the World.
I suspect they aren't as efficient as the huge plants but certainly cheaper and quicker to build and seemingly less politically sensitive.

Except for what? None have been built as yet so I’m talking about what’s around now, this minute.

 

[fizzy]

Except for what? None have been built as yet so I’m talking about what’s around now, this minute.

I agree it is VERY difficult to get proper figures as they are all manipulated so much - but the same can be said of solar and wind.
The Rolls Royce reactors will be sold as commercial ventures. They will be cheap enough for private companies to buy and run. Even the likes of Google and Amazon are looking into them to run data centres and sell the surplus.
Time will tell. They are welcome to put one in my warehouse

 

[daleyd]

I agree it is VERY difficult to get proper figures as they are all manipulated so much - but the same can be said of solar and wind.
The Rolls Royce reactors will be sold as commercial ventures. They will be cheap enough for private companies to buy and run. Even the likes of Google and Amazon are looking into them to run data centres and sell the surplus.
Time will tell. They are welcome to put one in my warehouse

Nice turn around back to wind and solar from a post about nuclear

But yeah, I admire your optimism that the SMR design WILL be cheap enough for private companies. I’m actually hopeful they take off but I’ve had a decade of working in and around the nuclear industry and am pretty sure they won’t be on time time or on budget.

Should they go ahead - yeah of course but there’s a long way to go before we know the true cost.

 

[fizzy]

Nice turn around back to wind and solar from a post about nuclear

But yeah, I admire your optimism that the SMR design WILL be cheap enough for private companies. I’m actually hopeful they take off but I’ve had a decade of working in and around the nuclear industry and am pretty sure they won’t be on time time or on budget.

Should they go ahead - yeah of course but there’s a long way to go before we know the true cost.

I think they are already choosing the sites for the factories - it will mean a lot of good quality engineering and welding jobs in this country which has to be a good thing!

 

[daleyd]

I think they are already choosing the sites for the factories - it will mean a lot of good quality engineering and welding jobs in this country which has to be a good thing!

Yes of course - I actually hope to get some work from it myself (or at least the company I work for) having been involved with the manufacturing process of the last couple of designs!

 

[fizzy]

Yes of course - I actually hope to get some work from it myself (or at least the company I work for) having been involved with the manufacturing process of the last couple of designs!

That's another thing I hate about all these windmills. Nearly all made abroad

 

[premmington]

I agree it is VERY difficult to get proper figures as they are all manipulated so much - but the same can be said of solar and wind.
The Rolls Royce reactors will be sold as commercial ventures. They will be cheap enough for private companies to buy and run. Even the likes of Google and Amazon are looking into them to run data centres and sell the surplus.
Time will tell. They are welcome to put one in my warehouse

If you are really worried about the planet - cost should not come into it!

I am worried about the cost! Also I don't like the idea of nuclear truthfully.

But at this time and with the net zero target - I am pro nuclear as I don't think we have another choice with the tech we have about us.

Tech will move on - fossil fuel prices will increase making the "nuclear option look cheaper".

 

[Gareth J]

I agree it is VERY difficult to get proper figures as they are all manipulated so much - but the same can be said of solar and wind.

Theres no figure manipulation involved if you get your own solar or wind generator. You said your father might expect a 10yr payback (seems pessimistic but hey ho) on an array, or shorter DIY. Good luck building a garden fission reactor at all, let alone with a sub 10yr payback.

 

[Maker]

Good luck building a garden fission reactor at all, let alone with a sub 10yr payback.

Actually, plenty of people have built DIY fusion reactors, Google "fusor".



It doesn't produce any power though, just a pretty blue plasma.

Not really relevant to this discussion, I just think it's interesting.

 

[fizzy]

Theres no figure manipulation involved if you get your own solar or wind generator. You said your father might expect a 10yr payback (seems pessimistic but hey ho) on an array, or shorter DIY. Good luck building a garden fission reactor at all, let alone with a sub 10yr payback.

As I have said many times - I am not against people having their own solar! Makes sense with the current prices.