Energy prices.

[Kayos]

Only if the " Useless Plastic Bollards " get in the way ? ( " PMQ's today " )

No comment or thread will be locked, but im about as far from agreeing with you as possible

 

[Kayos]

MSN

 

[fizzy]

Not really - they made a decision in 2014 that would reduce the nuclear fleet in the future, but that didn't affect anything to do with maintenance/upkeep of current plants - if you think that then you need to do some more research on how nuclear plants are run and what the current problems in France are. You can try and spin it as anti renewables whichever way you like but this is not really anything to do with that.

I am not blaming it on the renewables as such - more the mind set. They are the cheapest exporters of electricity. They have the lowest CO2 emission - and yet they decided to ignore the facts and do it anyway. Entirely political and not driven from an engineering basis.

 

[fizzy]

MSN

It also mentions gas providing the power when needed - which is very expensive.
Basically they operate like a bank of capacitors - but they do consume a lot of energy. Not a new idea at all. Was used a lot many moons ago. I remember my Uncle talking about them when he was in Port Talbot steel works. They used to get up to all sorts of tricks. Sometimes they would tell staff to turn on everything they could find - especially electric heaters etc. Other times then they were knocking everything off
BP also used them in Aden for the power grid there. My Dad used to take me to the power station. Loved it.

 

[Kayos]

It also mentions gas providing the power when needed - which is very expensive.
Basically they operate like a bank of capacitors - but they do consume a lot of energy. Not a new idea at all. Was used a lot many moons ago. I remember my Uncle talking about them when he was in Port Talbot steel works. They used to get up to all sorts of tricks. Sometimes they would tell staff to turn on everything they could find - especially electric heaters etc. Other times then they were knocking everything off
BP also used them in Aden for the power grid there. My Dad used to take me to the power station. Loved it.

Never said it was new, the point is quite unsurprisingly, people are putting a lot of effort into upgrading the grid.
Thankfully with a broad view on the energy mix

 

[daleyd]

I am not blaming it on the renewables as such - more the mind set. They are the cheapest exporters of electricity. They have the lowest CO2 emission - and yet they decided to ignore the facts and do it anyway. Entirely political and not driven from an engineering basis.

They are doing so well that EDF are in serious financial trouble and are probably going to end up completely nationalised (They are to all intents and purposes are anyway...)

I'm all for having a debate but please don't pretend nuclear doesn't come without problems or is actually expensive when looked at as a whole life cost. It should be part of a mix but you keep banging on about France and nuclear like they don't come with any issues. Wake up and see that there are other things that need to happen as well, as unpalatable as it may be to you renewables are going to be (indeed already are) part of that.

Also remember that without renewables its likely that our energy bills would actually be higher than they already are.

 

[fizzy]

They are doing so well that EDF are in serious financial trouble and are probably going to end up completely nationalised (They are to all intents and purposes are anyway...)

I'm all for having a debate but please don't pretend nuclear doesn't come without problems or is actually expensive when looked at as a whole life cost. It should be part of a mix but you keep banging on about France and nuclear like they don't come with any issues. Wake up and see that there are other things that need to happen as well, as unpalatable as it may be to you renewables are going to be (indeed already are) part of that.

Also remember that without renewables its likely that our energy bills would actually be higher than they already are.

The main trouble they are having is with a westinghouse reactor design. Welds developing stress. It is nothing to do with nuclear power itself. It is only effecting a few reactors. Lack of investment is another issue.
For many years France has done very well out of its nuclear industry.

 

[fizzy]

Never said it was new, the point is quite unsurprisingly, people are putting a lot of effort into upgrading the grid.
Thankfully with a broad view on the energy mix

These upgrades never used to be needed though. They don't come cheap.

 

[Kayos]

The main trouble they are having is with a westinghouse reactor design. Welds developing stress. It is nothing to do with nuclear power itself. It is only effecting a few reactors. Lack of investment is another issue.
For many years France has done very well out of its nuclear industry.

I know we often disagree but sometimes you need to read what you have posted.

A problem with a reactor is a problem with nuclear, the 2 are not mutually exclusive

 

[Kayos]

These upgrades never used to be needed though. They don't come cheap.

It's an old idea but never used to be needed?

Which is it?

 

[fizzy]

It's an old idea but never used to be needed?

Which is it?

I mean in thr 80s until now.

 

[fizzy]

I know we often disagree but sometimes you need to read what you have posted.

A problem with a reactor is a problem with nuclear, the 2 are not mutually exclusive

No its not. That's like saying if one windmill design sheds blades they are all bad.
Or the Boeing max. All planes are bad because they crashed.

 

[daleyd]

The main trouble they are having is with a westinghouse reactor design. Welds developing stress. It is nothing to do with nuclear power itself. It is only effecting a few reactors. Lack of investment is another issue.
For many years France has done very well out of its nuclear industry.

It’s not the only issue though is it? Is that what’s caused flammanville to be 4 x it’s original estimated build cost? The same for the Finnish reactor that’s years late and way over budget.

As said above you can’t separate the 2 issues, it’s a fact that there is problems with some of France fleet of reactors. There’s nothing wrong with admitting that but don’t try to suggest that there isn’t major costs involved with nuclear, this is before we start talking about decommissioning and the waste issues.

They did well out of them when they were newly built but now they are looking to extend the life then they are becoming more expensive to run - but probably still cheaper than new build…

It’s a necessary (albeit flawed) technology but we need to be looking at a mix of stuff - wind, solar included.

 

[fizzy]

It’s not the only issue though is it? Is that what’s caused flammanville to be 4 x it’s original estimated build cost? The same for the Finnish reactor that’s years late and way over budget.

As said above you can’t separate the 2 issues, it’s a fact that there is problems with some of France fleet of reactors. There’s nothing wrong with admitting that but don’t try to suggest that there isn’t major costs involved with nuclear, this is before we start talking about decommissioning and the waste issues.

They did well out of them when they were newly built but now they are looking to extend the life then they are becoming more expensive to run - but probably still cheaper than new build…

It’s a necessary (albeit flawed) technology but we need to be looking at a mix of stuff - wind, solar included.

How come the new reactors all go over budget and have these problems? The old ones built back in the 50s and 60s have run for almost 50 years quite safely. Makes you wonder eh?

 

[daleyd]

How come the new reactors all go over budget and have these problems? The old ones built back in the 50s and 60s have run for almost 50 years quite safely. Makes you wonder eh?

Erm - you might need a bit more research.

Below - from Wikipedia about the agr second gen design…

The lead station, Dungeness B was ordered in 1965 with a target completion date of 1970. After problems with nearly every aspect of the reactor design it finally began generating electricity in 1983, 13 years late.

To be fair follow on ones were better but it’s far from a new phenomenon.

 

[Farside]

Wasn't nuclear energy supposed to be....... ahem...... "Too cheap to meter"?

Did you see the size of the meter, though? Somebody had to pay for that.

 

[fizzy]

Erm - you might need a bit more research.

Below - from Wikipedia about the agr second gen design…

The lead station, Dungeness B was ordered in 1965 with a target completion date of 1970. After problems with nearly every aspect of the reactor design it finally began generating electricity in 1983, 13 years late.

To be fair follow on ones were better but it’s far from a new phenomenon.

Most of the designs were very new back then. After 60 odd years you would think they had learnt by now!

 

[DAPPH]

How come the new reactors all go over budget and have these problems? The old ones built back in the 50s and 60s have run for almost 50 years quite safely. Makes you wonder eh?

If you had a crystal ball with Duracell batteries you might have a better indication of costs 12 years ahead of the original estimates .. all manner of global events bump up the costs especially wages & materials .

 

[Gareth J]

They are having problems because of a lack of investment. They started thinking perhaps they should get wind and solar. Now they have seen the light - mainly because of Ukraine of course.

Nuclear Power in France - World Nuclear Association

France derives about 70% of its electricity from nuclear energy. This is due to a long-standing policy based on energy security. France is the world's largest net exporter of electricity due to its very low cost of nuclear generation.

world-nuclear.org

• France derives about 70% of its electricity from nuclear energy, due to a long-standing policy based on energy security.
• Government policy, set under a former administration in 2014, aimed to reduce nuclear's share of electricity generation to 50% by 2025. This target was delayed in 2019 to 2035.
• In February 2022 France announced plans to build six new reactors and to consider building a further eight.
• France is the world's largest net exporter of electricity due to its very low cost of generation, and gains over €3 billion per year from this.
• The country has been very active in developing nuclear technology. Reactors and especially fuel products and services have been a significant export.
• About 17% of France's electricity is from recycled nuclear fuel.

Notice the comment about France being the World's largest exporter of electricity due to low costs of generation! Nuclear can't be all bad can it?

Nowhere on that website does it mention what those "low costs of generation" actually are. If they are that low, we are being well and truly shafted for all the nuclear we have agreed to. That's not to say that it's not worth the expense. But cheap it is not.

 

[fizzy]

Nowhere on that website does it mention what those "low costs of generation" actually are. If they are that low, we are being well and truly shafted for all the nuclear we have agreed to. That's not to say that it's not worth the expense. But cheap it is not.

France gets most of its power from nuclear.
Hence they sell it cheap.
We only get about 15% of our electricity from nuclear. Today gas is running at 45%. Hence ours is expensive.