DPF

[reb78]

I understand exactly how they work thankyou. We will have to leave it there as I don't want to argue.

 

[premmington]

What about when they regen & clear all the soot out?

Buying a new Mitsubishi DPF from the dealers might actually kill me - if I had to do it!

I am not sure my heart could stand the price quote.

 

[Peter M]

The soot is unburned fuel/hydrocarbons
There will be some particulate but it's a miniscule amount. Hence, why output is stated as g/km. Typically 0.001 g/km on something efficient
No DPF = everything that comes out of the engine goes into the atmosphere!

It's why the removal of a DPF is illegal and an MOT fail.
DVSA are really cracking down on testing and MOT inspectors who turn a blind eye! Good job too IMO.

 

[premmington]

The soot is unburned fuel/hydrocarbons
There will be some particulate but it's a miniscule amount. Hence, why output is stated as g/km. Typically 0.001 g/km on something efficient
No DPF = everything that comes out of the engine goes into the atmosphere!

It's why the removal of a DPF is illegal and an MOT fail.
DVSA are really cracking down on testing and MOT inspectors who turn a blind eye! Good job too IMO.

The odd thing about legislation about DPF removal is: It is not illegal to offer the service and take payment for it. It is only illegal to use the vehicle on the public highway if you are driving it. Big fines are levied if you are caught.

There is gonna be huge shake up with smoke testing - DVSA have cameras everywhere - there is report floating about that one in 15 cars/vans on motorways leave a visible trail of smoke behind them. But one in 15 diesel vehicles do not fail the annual MOT test on visible smoke. You can see the problem they are unearthing.

I personally am fed up with roadtesting cars for MOT testing to blow the soot and smoke out of them.

 

[doubleboost]

 

[Peter M]

The odd thing about legislation about DPF removal is: It is not illegal to offer the service and take payment for it. It is only illegal to use the vehicle on the public highway if you are driving it. Big fines are levied if you are caught.

There is gonna be huge shake up with smoke testing - DVSA have cameras everywhere - there is report floating about that one in 15 cars/vans on motorways leave a visible trail of smoke behind them. But one in 15 diesel vehicles do not fail the annual MOT test on visible smoke. You can see the problem they are unearthing.

I personally am fed up with roadtesting cars for MOT testing to blow the soot and smoke out of them.

I'm with you entirely;
People driving cars mis-sold based on an efficiency figure/mpg that's not attainable when they cover 10 miles of town driving a day!

More worryingly; garages/MOT test centres offering to remove DPF's for financial gain and knowingly issuing a fresh MOT test certificate!
Brings the trade into disrepute and further damages the image of the business we are in.

 

[premmington]

I'm with you entirely;
People driving cars mis-sold based on an efficiency figure/mpg that's not attainable when they cover 10 miles of town driving a day!

More worryingly; garages/MOT test centres offering to remove DPF's for financial gain and knowingly issuing a fresh MOT test certificate!
Brings the trade into disrepute and further damages the image of the business we are in.

You can smell them if the DPF has been removed - they also have a hollow sound note to exhaust.

But some of them make fumes that make you eyes water - but show no obvious signs of visible smoke.

I personally have never sold DPF deletes.

But a lot of the trade do...

A DPF fitler will write most ten year old cars off - cost wise. Normally the fitler has failed due to another fault.

Intake air leaks - fautly injectors over fueling - fautly EGR valves - faulty turbo oil seals. Wrong oil used.

 

[a111r]

Great vid, thanks. The 'orange colour' was quite a revelation.

And a good thread: I don't think I'll take my 57 plate Chrysler Grand Voyager 2.8 CRD to @premmington now, I will burn it instead...

 

[addjunkie]

A DPF fitler will write most ten year old cars off - cost wise.

Thats not good for the enviroment either, for the cost of an exhaust sction. Making new cars is less enviromentally friendly than running and reusing old stuff. Let alone the waste that wont be recycled.

 

[premmington]

Thats not good for the enviroment either, for the cost of an exhaust sction. Making new cars is less enviromentally friendly than running and reusing old stuff. Let alone the waste that wont be recycled.

100% agree with the you.

Problem with DPF filters is temp.

I have seen vans and airport transfer taxis - do 500.000miles on the same DPF - but they are getting up to temp and staying up to temp.

It is constant short runs and poor car servicing/repair that kill DPF's

Bottom line is - a lot of people are using a big diesel engine when they should have brought a small petrol engine.



I looked at 2012 VW touran (7 seater) last week - your normal family car! Failed MOT testing on smoke.

The car had errorcodes in it for MAF sensor range/glowplugs - loads of oil in the intercooler - from cold it had a slight misfire and overfueled a bit. And yes it would not go into regen.

At 120.000miles - to really clean it up - it needed a set of injectors/glowplugs/turbo - the whole intake system sealed up and cleaned. What it got was forced regen - hard hot test drive and retested when shinking hot - it scraped thru the MOT.

The hard reality is - the young family with loads of kids - can't afford to repair it properly - they won't or can't change the oil on a regular basis - plus they are doing short school runs in it. And in time - they will need a new DPF because the car will grind to a halt - with a blocked DPF. But a new fitler will not cure it longterm - the whole cycle will just start again.

Taking into account the car may still be on HP - the owners may well find someone to do a DPF delete. They have four kids and mouths to feed.

 

[Edward Teach]

Really don't want to appear rude but; do you understand what a DPF does and the significant health implications are to us once it is removed? Modern DI Diesel engines produce very fine particulate matter. Easily taken into the lungs and stays there. DPF retains this matter and gets burned off as and when the engine controller has criteria met and calls for a regen while driving.
Simply 'getting rid' is the worse thing anyone could do for public health, the environment, children, grandchildren etc etc.
It's attitudes like this that are causing unnecessary deaths for ones own personal gain!

Really,
There are Why's and Therefore's and Whatever's,
You need to look at 'The Bigger Picture'
edit:
Meaning, nothing will change today, tomorrow or next week.
But come back in 10 years, 20 years and things have moved on.

 

[My Old Landy]

My 2014 Astra has never (in my 4 years of ownership) done a regen. Is this because every journey was at least 40 miles (so 80 miles a day) on the work commute and 106 miles each way to my parents?
My Mrs's car is also a 2l diesel but of 2008 plated vintage and does not have a dpf from new (it was manufactured just before the dpf laws came in).
I think I have been lucky so far!

 

[doubleboost]

I'm with you entirely;
People driving cars mis-sold based on an efficiency figure/mpg that's not attainable when they cover 10 miles of town driving a day!

More worryingly; garages/MOT test centres offering to remove DPF's for financial gain and knowingly issuing a fresh MOT test certificate!
Brings the trade into disrepute and further damages the image of the business we are in.

A garage doing this will be suspended from testing .

 

[premmington]

A garage doing this will be suspended from testing .

Am I correct in saying?

A MOT test centre cannot advertise to do DPF deletes. But still can do them!

The only reason they will be suspended from testing is for advertising?


Clearly no MOT tester would ever pass a DPF that has been tampered with...

 

[Peter M]

Really,
There are Why's and Therefore's and Whatever's,
You need to look at 'The Bigger Picture'
edit:
Meaning, nothing will change today, tomorrow or next week.
But come back in 10 years, 20 years and things have moved on.

Not with you?
The big picture is long term environmental damage and public health issues due to fine particulate matter coming out the back of diesel cars with a DPF delete.
Replacement of these units when they block/fail is very expensive indeed...... Deleting cannot be justified because it’s a cheaper option, no matter who you are or what your financial predicament is. It’s morally wrong and illegal.
garages offering such a service (having watched the car drive in off the public highway) are knowingly rendering the vehicle illegal for use on the road. They should be prosecuted along with the vehicle owner/driver imo.
As previously mentioned (premmington): if you have ever stood near a car with a DPF delete in a confined space, you would be all too aware of the noxious fumes coming out of the tailpipe. Generally soooo bad you struggle to breathe while tears stream from your eyes!! Anyone with one or more brain cells will appreciate this can’t be good for ones health!?
If 1/5 of all Diesels fitted with a DPF currently have them deleted; we have a serious problem on our hands and more so 10 - 20 years time when we are dying of respiratory disease!

 

[premmington]

Not with you?
The big picture is long term environmental damage and public health issues due to fine particulate matter coming out the back of diesel cars with a DPF delete.
Replacement of these units when they block/fail is very expensive indeed...... Deleting cannot be justified because it’s a cheaper option, no matter who you are or what your financial predicament is. It’s morally wrong and illegal.
garages offering such a service (having watched the car drive in off the public highway) are knowingly rendering the vehicle illegal for use on the road. They should be prosecuted along with the vehicle owner/driver imo.
As previously mentioned (premmington): if you have ever stood near a car with a DPF delete in a confined space, you would be all too aware of the noxious fumes coming out of the tailpipe. Generally soooo bad you struggle to breathe while tears stream from your eyes!! Anyone with one or more brain cells will appreciate this can’t be good for ones health!?
If 1/5 of all Diesels fitted with a DPF currently have them deleted; we have a serious problem on our hands and more so 10 - 20 years time when we are dying of respiratory disease!

Your quote "If 1/5 of all Diesels fitted with a DPF currently have them deleted"....?

Is it really as high as this?

We see an odd one in our workshop - but not 20% of diesels en mass as an average? (Unless people in Norfolk are more law abiding?)


Not all vehicles with a DPF delete - give you "the noxious fumes/tears stream from your eyes experience". It tends to be vehicles overfueling/which are equiped with EGR/O2/NOX control which are worse.

I have noted some low mileage - high performance diesels which have been "mapped" will be as bad - even with the DPF still intact.

If you really care about the environment - don't dismiss the particulate matter issue from HP direct injection petrol engine cars. This is a hidden problem I fear will pop its head up into the future.


I am not anti combustion engine at all. But we have to get our heads round the fact - the average capacity of one should not be as big - as they are being currently sold as. If it is the really the environment you care about - passenger cars should be capped at 1.0 litre for petrols and 1.6 litre for diesels. Then higher for vans/lorries/plant - 4000cc ?

And yes there has been some disasters in small engine design from manufaturers in recent times - Ford 1.0 Ecoboost and the 1.3JTD multipack engine fitted to most small vans and passenger cars. But I am not convinced the first designs of full EV's are gonna be that reliable out of the stable - when they get into mass production and the cost (quality of them) starts to fall.

The problem with small engine design is - there are all made on the cheap for low cost vehicles and don't last very long (do high mileages). This may have to change...

Simply put - with modern engine fueling control - lower the cylinder capacity - the volume of the exhaust gas is less. It is just that simple...

There are studies going on at the moment - to see if lower RPM engines are viable - use the torque of diesel at lower RPM (lower RPM means less exhaust volume per mile). Smaller engines with gearboxes larger than the engine. Have you noted most new vans with autoboxes - with DSG gearboxes are 8 speed. Most new passenger cars are 7 speed in auto and 6 speed in manual. You may end up driving a 1.0 21 speed car in the future...? The age old idea of the "overdrive" - real tall gear ratios/low rpm - maybe be coming back. It is fairly flat where I live

 

[Edward Teach]

Not with you?
The big picture is long term environmental damage and public health issues due to fine particulate matter coming out the back of diesel cars with a DPF delete.
Replacement of these units when they block/fail is very expensive indeed...... Deleting cannot be justified because it’s a cheaper option, no matter who you are or what your financial predicament is. It’s morally wrong and illegal.
garages offering such a service (having watched the car drive in off the public highway) are knowingly rendering the vehicle illegal for use on the road. They should be prosecuted along with the vehicle owner/driver imo.
As previously mentioned (premmington): if you have ever stood near a car with a DPF delete in a confined space, you would be all too aware of the noxious fumes coming out of the tailpipe. Generally soooo bad you struggle to breathe while tears stream from your eyes!! Anyone with one or more brain cells will appreciate this can’t be good for ones health!?
If 1/5 of all Diesels fitted with a DPF currently have them deleted; we have a serious problem on our hands and more so 10 - 20 years time when we are dying of respiratory disease!

You have not taken onboard, what I have said at all

 

[Gareth J]

Your quote "If 1/5 of all Diesels fitted with a DPF currently have them deleted"....?

Is it really as high as this?

We see an odd one in our workshop - but not 20% of diesels en mass as an average? (Unless people in Norfolk are more law abiding?)


Not all vehicles with a DPF delete - give you "the noxious fumes/tears stream from your eyes experience". It tends to be vehicles overfueling/which are equiped with EGR/O2/NOX control which are worse.

I have noted some low mileage - high performance diesels which have been "mapped" will be as bad - even with the DPF still intact.

If you really care about the environment - don't dismiss the particulate matter issue from HP direct injection petrol engine cars. This is a hidden problem I fear will pop its head up into the future.


I am not anti combustion engine at all. But we have to get our heads round the fact - the average capacity of one should not be as big - as they are being currently sold as. If it is the really the environment you care about - passenger cars should be capped at 1.0 litre for petrols and 1.6 litre for diesels. Then higher for vans/lorries/plant - 4000cc ?

And yes there has been some disasters in small engine design from manufaturers in recent times - Ford 1.0 Ecoboost and the 1.3JTD multipack engine fitted to most small vans and passenger cars. But I am not convinced the first designs of full EV's are gonna be that reliable out of the stable - when they get into mass production and the cost (quality of them) starts to fall.

The problem with small engine design is - there are all made on the cheap for low cost vehicles and don't last very long (do high mileages). This may have to change...

Simply put - with modern engine fueling control - lower the cylinder capacity - the volume of the exhaust gas is less. It is just that simple...

There are studies going on at the moment - to see if lower RPM engines are viable - use the torque of diesel at lower RPM (lower RPM means less exhaust volume per mile). Smaller engines with gearboxes larger than the engine. Have you noted most new vans with autoboxes - with DSG gearboxes are 8 speed. Most new passenger cars are 7 speed in auto and 6 speed in manual. You may end up driving a 1.0 21 speed car in the future...? The age old idea of the "overdrive" - real tall gear ratios/low rpm - maybe be coming back. It is fairly flat where I live

It's interesting to hear your experiences with the "nastiness" of diesel exhaust. Something I've noticed too. We got a tractor mapped a few years back, never had a catalyst or dpf but uses within head egr with build in valve overlap as far as I understand. Post remap it it so much nastier to be around. A little sootier but thats not what grates when nearby.

It's not bound by road laws as not used on the road.

Presumably, this is a result of the map, altering timing and fuelling to increase cylinder temps, increase combustion efficiency and therefore power and economy but at the expense of drastically increasing NOx output.

There's a counter incentive with diesels to trade off efficiency and economy for local health benefits. Any such perverse incentive needs really strict management or to be done away with. Its unfair to ask manufacturers to limit the efficiency of their cars (dieselgate) or owners not to want to get better mpg or bhp (remapping). The individual rewards are there so disincentives need to be too.

Pretty easy on petrols with CATs as they're easily tested and flagged. New diesels should have been NOx tested at MOT 10yrs ago. Why new ones now STILL aren't tested is beyond me.

 

[Peter M]

Morning Premmington,
My suggestion of 1/5 was a guesstimate and nothing more. Think we would all be surprised if we knew the actual number. Performance tuned cars with delete pipes from relatively new etc etc.
The GDI cars run GPF or OPF to catch particulate along with NOX catalysts. Anyone who thinks DPF are expensive to replace will be pleased to know how much GPF and NOX cats are with associated sensors! For instance: The Mercedes diesel NOX sensors have a problem and can only be replaced with genuine items along with a software update. Cost can be up to £1200 depending on part numbers required etc.
We are seeing three cylinder vehicles with lower capacity that are ‘sold’ as efficient yet suffer a magnitude of technical complexities that cost a fortune to rectify........ far more than any efficiency/fuel saving and are significantly contributing to landfill/pollution as there’s generally no exchange process so it just gets ‘skipped’. I’m no tree hugger but realise we all need to do our bit, however small.

Frustrates me when I see all too many cars coming in with ‘work around’s’ that generally don’t work as intended but tick a box ie extinguish a warning lamp. At the detriment to society/environment

Edward Teach,
I genuinely don’t understand what you are intimating? I realise diesels will be a thing of the past in 10 - 20 years time but advocating or turning a blind eye to emissions responsibility ie removal of DPF or catalyst etc is fundamentally wrong today or when we look back on it in years to come.
If I’ve missed the point one more time: please do PM me with a de-coded version just for me.
Have a good day Gents

 

[premmington]

Morning Premmington,
My suggestion of 1/5 was a guesstimate and nothing more. Think we would all be surprised if we knew the actual number. Performance tuned cars with delete pipes from relatively new etc etc.
The GDI cars run GPF or OPF to catch particulate along with NOX catalysts. Anyone who thinks DPF are expensive to replace will be pleased to know how much GPF and NOX cats are with associated sensors! For instance: The Mercedes diesel NOX sensors have a problem and can only be replaced with genuine items along with a software update. Cost can be up to £1200 depending on part numbers required etc.
We are seeing three cylinder vehicles with lower capacity that are ‘sold’ as efficient yet suffer a magnitude of technical complexities that cost a fortune to rectify........ far more than any efficiency/fuel saving and are significantly contributing to landfill/pollution as there’s generally no exchange process so it just gets ‘skipped’. I’m no tree hugger but realise we all need to do our bit, however small.

Frustrates me when I see all too many cars coming in with ‘work around’s’ that generally don’t work as intended but tick a box ie extinguish a warning lamp. At the detriment to society/environment

Edward Teach,
I genuinely don’t understand what you are intimating? I realise diesels will be a thing of the past in 10 - 20 years time but advocating or turning a blind eye to emissions responsibility ie removal of DPF or catalyst etc is fundamentally wrong today or when we look back on it in years to come.
If I’ve missed the point one more time: please do PM me with a de-coded version just for me.
Have a good day Gents

This is an emotive subject.

What I do understand is: The cost versus planet equation is an issue.

I do wish I could wave a magic wand at it and solve the problem - but I can't.

If I could - I would - wave the wand at the health vs economy problem we are suffering at the moment - first.