Gigantic 3ph extractor

[Ali]

@Parm is half right, I see a lot of those. I’m not qualified to design the ducting (BOHS P602) but I am to test them (P601). I’ve seen enough / failed enough systems with badly designed ductwork to know it is complicated (not to mention the hoods - just plugging the duct into the port on the back of a woodworking machine and assuming it’s going to work because the flow in the duct is theoretically adequate would be naive, that’s why you commission). I have an awful lot of respect for those who know what they’re doing and get it right.

Also ATEX provision (DSEAR regs), fire dampers between fire walls etc. etc. There’s typically 80 pages of guff like that in one of my reports.

Unfortunately there’s no such thing as a cheap system that ticks all the boxes. It probably won’t do much for the fine dust (ie., the nasty stuff), but it will pull the chips - the risk is that the operators think the big shiny system is protecting them, really it’s just keeping things a bit tidier in the workshop.

The electrical part shouldn’t be complicated for an electrician with experience of that sort of kit.

The timer is for the duration of the shaker run, depends on the system application / filter media. They’re horribly noisy with those big units, just bolted together steel panels - I carry a dB meter and can’t remember letting one like that go without an advisory.

Work is work at the moment I suppose, no point being negative but I suppose it wouldn’t hurt to pass on the advice here to the employer in case he/she isn’t aware of their responsibilities and the ramifications of getting it wrong.

I certainly wouldn’t sign anything to say it works even if it appears to!

 

[Ton-up]

I spoke to the chap who supplied it who works at Crompton. I don't know what he does there but it sounds like he knows his own product. You'll have to tell him he doesn't know what he's doing.

OR you could take the less combative approach and recognise that in the real world, people bodge kit together in all manner of ways to get things working. So it is quite possible no-one knows why that particular type of timer is fitted until someone goes in there to take a look.

The chap at Crompton suggested a YD30S should be fitted (which it also might!) so I will be emailing them to establish costs and installation procedure etc. That timer certainly wasn't fitted by them so someone has added it for as yet unknown reasons.

I dont need to tell the guy at Crompton because this has not been fitted by him. As I said it may well have been fitted by Air plants.

 

[Ali]

I misread a bit...sorry - didn’t realise it was just a few minor changes to positioning. Any big changes to ductwork length / branches etc could have an ill effect on performance but if not and the commissioning data is all kosher (should be a log book / schematic / user manual / COSHH assessments), do whatever and get it re-commissioned by someone qualified. New Initial Thorough Examination and Test to include any necessary amendments to the logbook. Good P602 commissioning engineer should pick up any problems.

 

[mtt.tr]

Do you know how to size cables size? 14.4a but what per phase.

 

[WorkshopChris]

Do you know how to size cables size? 14.4a but what per phase.

I have decided not to post again on this for many reasons.
Just from a photo in the first post, I can see one glaring fail on this extractors original installation. That considering its location and designed use implies it was previously set up by someone who has no knowledge of woodworking machinery, so therefore the whole installation needs to be re-examined from top to bottom.

 

[Parm]

Do you know how to size cables size? 14.4a but what per phase.

The internet will give all the answers

 

[Parm]

I have decided not to post again on this for many reasons.
Just from a photo in the first post, I can see one glaring fail on this extractors original installation. That considering its location and designed use implies it was previously set up by someone who has no knowledge of woodworking machinery, so therefore the whole installation needs to be re-examined from top to bottom.

Explosion relief panels spring to mind and poor positioning

 

[WorkshopChris]

Explosion relief panels spring to mind and poor positioning

I hadn't even got as far as the DX side of things. This was an image of a blindingly poor electrical method for a wood dust environment.
I had drafted a long and very helpful technical post then deleted it before posting following the attitude in reply from the op to other posters offering advise.

 

[Parm]

My last word on this

Competence isn’t about what you know.

It’s about having the ability to recognise what you don’t know

Asking on the internet isn’t gaining competence

I make a living by holding people to account over this

Haven’t lost a case yet, but there is always a first time

 

[Screwdriver]

I dont need to tell the guy at Crompton because this has not been fitted by him. As I said it may well have been fitted by Air plants.

Well I don't know that and unless you're mates with "Phil" at Crompton controls ltd., neither do you. You might assume it but it took him about 20 seconds to cross reference the sales order and he said "we didn't fit that type of timer".

Not much to go on and it's a moot point anyway, it is what it is so all I have to do is make sure that when it goes in, it is installed to whatever code applies remembering any installation work is going to be signed off by a qualified electrician.

I misread a bit...sorry - didn’t realise it was just a few minor changes to positioning. Any big changes to ductwork length / branches etc could have an ill effect on performance but if not and the commissioning data is all kosher (should be a log book / schematic / user manual / COSHH assessments), do whatever and get it re-commissioned by someone qualified. New Initial Thorough Examination and Test to include any necessary amendments to the logbook. Good P602 commissioning engineer should pick up any problems.

Again, the ducting system is nothing to do with me. I recognise it exists and they have been using it for years with a smaller extractor. Physically smaller but with one big bag. Before anyone bites my head off, I don't know how different these systems are so frankly, neither does anyone reading this. Anyway, the owner who has installed the ducting knows what he wants and if you want to tell him he doesn’t know what he’s doing, I can put you in touch.

 

[Screwdriver]

I have decided not to post again on this for many reasons.
Just from a photo in the first post, I can see one glaring fail on this extractors original installation. That considering its location and designed use implies it was previously set up by someone who has no knowledge of woodworking machinery, so therefore the whole installation needs to be re-examined from top to bottom.

<swoon> omg stop being such a drama queen. It’s not actually installed yet or hadn’t you noticed?

If you can see a “glaring fail” why wouldn’t you just say what it is?

Otherwise, why are you posting in this thread?

 

[Screwdriver]

I hadn't even got as far as the DX side of things. This was an image of a blindingly poor electrical method for a wood dust environment.
I had drafted a long and very helpful technical post then deleted it before posting following the attitude in reply from the op to other posters offering advise.

Had you really?

Somehow I doubt it.

 

[slim_boy_fat]

I suspect it won't be long before appears, to put a stop to the acrimony generated by this thread.

 

[DAPPH]

We had a bonfire of offcuts bit of an annual treat, to show the dangers of dust a split bag of extractor dust was chucked into fire.

An impressive explosion.

In Woodston , Peterborough around 1984 the local joinery unit at Wharf Road " Glendale Joinery " went bang because of built up dust being disturbed in the presence of a flame not a lot was left of the buildings . IIRC several people were injured not only in the joinery place but in adjacent buildings. I was lucky by being out on a repair call, as part of the roof over my usual work area fell in from 16 or so foot above the benches I wouldn't have stood a chance of surviving if it had got me .

Screwdriver qualified or not I seriously think you need to fully take onboard that such dust extraction system are fully covered by very specific legislation , play with them at your unqualified risk . Even lengthening duct work requires proving figure work & design planning to ensure the system is adequate for what it was designed for , there is a lot more to it than meets the eye .

HASAW act 1974 IIRC...
You will not by your acts or omissions endanger anyone whilst at the work place …. it's the first defining sentence of the act .. then follows twenty six furniture vans of detailed things .
Any work you do on the system is down to your name for the rest of your life ……...tread very carefully .

 

[Screwdriver]

I just had to quickly double check I hadn’t accidentally strayed into mumsnet.

 

[DAPPH]

I just had to quickly double check I hadn’t accidentally strayed into mumsnet.

Oh deary deary me .

 

[mtt.tr]

Oh deary deary me .

Oh yes.

 

[Ali]

Back to the original question about auto-switching. Are all the machines Felder? They do some quite nifty switching units, but as far as I know they’re just for local bag units. If they’ve already been using Felder bag units have a look and see if there is an electrical box, might be some gubbins worth having. I doubt you’ll find anything useful in the machine switchgear unless it’s been set up for auto switching previously, but sometimes they put stuff together on din rail and you can add a relay to the starter unit and rig up a control circuit. N.B. I’m no electrician, just what I’ve picked up from looking over my (very good) electricians shoulder.

You can get some very good electronic blast gates, but I can’t for the life of me remember the name of the company - Swedish I think. The systems I like will only let you open enough gates for the fan to handle and any additional machines won’t switch on until another is switched off. Likewise you can set up a sensor on the bag so the machines won’t start if the bag is full, to force the operator to do something about it.

 

[WorkshopChris]

If you can see a “glaring fail” why wouldn’t you just say what it is?

Ok the plastic flexible conduit terminated at the top of the start delta, that open fitting will allow the box to get filled with dust unless opened regularly to clear. Even with the correct glands in this type of environment its a constant maintenance battel to regularly keep switchgear boxes clear. I have opened boxes like that in the past to find them half full of dust and contactors failing to close when energised.

Had you really?

Somehow I doubt it.

I don't post what I can not back up with fact.

Extraction at a customers site I supported until I dismantled and packaged for export.
No wase bags straight into a 40foot trailer via transfer fan.
Now over 20 years in wood-related production manufacturing and 40 years in UK manufacturing I don't play at this for fun.

 

[Screwdriver]

In Woodston , Peterborough around 1984 the local joinery unit at Wharf Road " Glendale Joinery " went bang because of built up dust being disturbed in the presence of a flame not a lot was left of the buildings . IIRC several people were injured not only in the joinery place but in adjacent buildings. I was lucky by being out on a repair call, as part of the roof over my usual work area fell in from 16 or so foot above the benches I wouldn't have stood a chance of surviving if it had got me .

Screwdriver qualified or not I seriously think you need to fully take onboard that such dust extraction system are fully covered by very specific legislation , play with them at your unqualified risk . Even lengthening duct work requires proving figure work & design planning to ensure the system is adequate for what it was designed for , there is a lot more to it than meets the eye .

HASAW act 1974 IIRC...
You will not by your acts or omissions endanger anyone whilst at the work place …. it's the first defining sentence of the act .. then follows twenty six furniture vans of detailed things .
Any work you do on the system is down to your name for the rest of your life ……...tread very carefully .

Realistically, what do you think my options are here?

Tell a successful bespoke furniture maker after all these years he doesn’t know what he’s doing and he should stop now? Really, this is not a trick question or sarcasm, I genuinely would like to know what this forum would have me do (other than nothing).

This is a successful business, run by a decent chap with a family to support. No one else will help him, the country is in lockdown. He might not even have a business in a few weeks from now. His workshop has grown and in the real world, small enterprise workshops like this often end up growing organically and getting a bit messed up. You can sit and sneer or roll up your sleeves and try to help. I have offered to help.

@DAPPH you make a good point. I hadn’t considered the owner might not be familiar with extractor systems in woodworking workshops (tbh I still don’t) but I should at least ask for reassurance on his choice for installing this particular system. I will somehow broach the subject. Sadly, I don’t have much to go on because no one is actually giving me any real information here to say why he is obviously wrong.

I have no doubt that there are many folk here who know a darned sight more than I do about extraction systems, dust collectors and even 3ph motors. Some of them might even be posting in this thread. So I should go back to Tim and tell him I can’t help him, your setup is so dangerous people won’t even tell me what the problem is? Should I lie and tell him I am not a qualified engineer?

What I tend to do when the boot is on the other foot is go out of my way to help. That is why I am a member of this forum (and many others). It is a place for like minded people to share their stories and, yes, even promote safe working practices etc. But just to tell someone (you don’t know) they are obviously not competent is at best unhelpful and will ultimately lead to this thread getting locked. I suspect that is what some of the posters are gunning for.

All I am seeing is negativity and people claiming they can see the “obvious problems” but dare not reveal them or presumably the Masons lodge will kick them out.