How often do water meters go wrong?

[the snooper]

If you turn the water off and you have a leak, once the pressure drops the water wont keep flowing from the pipe , when the water is on the pressure forces the water out of the leak !

He's not turning the mains off, he has various other taps along the pipe

 

[daleyd]

Maybe a simple drawing of the arrangement might clarify things?

 

[hotponyshoes]

Maybe a simple drawing of the arrangement might clarify things?

It sounds like the meter that the water company use to bill him is just off the side of the road.
Then he has 1.5miles of pipe to his house.
Then he has put another meter at the house end.
At some time he has turned the house meter off and the road meter has still increased by 200litres.
At another time he has done the same experiment and the road meter has only shown a 6litre movement.

So,
He either has a leak that is only leaking under certain conditions
Or, something else taking off water
Or the meter at his house end is under-reading (but I think that's eliminated when he turns it off at the house end.

It could be the 200l use was a one-off from disruption of the pipes (air in them/dirt in the house meter/etc)
If not you either have to find the leak or live with it.

If you loose 200litres every day and the replacement pipe is .60p a meter if you only bought the pipe and just led it on the ground it's still going to take you 10 years to start saving money on the water bill.

 

[northwest]

will be about 25p a meter, two skins with a compactor and excavator for the week would cost about £1500, allow a bit of buggerence and time on reinstatements/clean up Fag packet calcs £5968 + vodka and tonic.

So, 200 litres missing at <whatever period> = £150 annually on the water bill due to loss approx. £6k divided by 150 = 40 years. I would just forget it and get on with my life for now and stress about it when I had accumulated a bit of cash and gathered my reserves mentally for the stress of it all.

 

[daleyd]

It sounds like the meter that the water company use to bill him is just off the side of the road.
Then he has 1.5miles of pipe to his house.
Then he has put another meter at the house end.
At some time he has turned the house meter off and the road meter has still increased by 200litres.
At another time he has done the same experiment and the road meter has only shown a 6litre movement.

So,
He either has a leak that is only leaking under certain conditions
Or, something else taking off water
Or the meter at his house end is under-reading (but I think that's eliminated when he turns it off at the house end.

It could be the 200l use was a one-off from disruption of the pipes (air in them/dirt in the house meter/etc)
If not you either have to find the leak or live with it.

If you loose 200litres every day and the replacement pipe is .60p a meter if you only bought the pipe and just led it on the ground it's still going to take you 10 years to start saving money on the water bill.

Yep, not disputing any of that, but a quick fag packet drawing indicating where the extra stop valves are fitted might help clear up what’s actually been done, and if there’s anything else that could be easily done, or not as the case may be. Just seems a better way of explaining something like this rather than just words which can be misinterpreted

 

[reb78]

Here we go. This may help.

The thick lines with arrows are roads (highways). From the main up by the main road, you can see that the pipe (red line) runs across a verge, a garden then into farmer 1's land, then under a dirt track onto farmer 2's land (hatched), then under a main road (highway) onto farmer 1's land then there are a series of stop taps we have inserted until it reaches the edge of our land where there is a permanent stop tap and then a second meter. We installed the second meter thinking that any discrepancy in reading between the two meters would show up a leak. The bottom meter consistently reads 200ish litres less than the one by the main road over a 24 hour period.

Points 1,2,3 & 4 all indicate where we have exposed the pipe and put in stop taps. The meter stays still above point 1,2,3 and 4. Turning the stop tap off by the second meter near the house for 6-12 hours (the 12 hours was last night) see's a loss of 6 litres. However, as above there is a 200litres/24 hours difference in the meters with the main meter reading 200 litres more than the one near the house - so if i read today and then tomorrow, the bottom meter will typically indicate we have used 300 litres at the house whereas the top meter will indicate closer to 500 litres in that 24 hour period.

Points A, B and C are not hugely relevant, but included for info - A to C has been dug up and we have replaced old black alkathene for 25mm2 blue MDPE because of a leak in the area of point B (now fixed as it has been replaced). The only black alkathene remaining is by the water main as far as we know, the rest is blue 25mm2 MDPE.

 

[8ob]

I would just forget it and get on with my life for now and stress about it when I had accumulated a bit of cash and gathered my reserves mentally for the stress of it all.

There is always that approach, any leak though will worsen as time goes on.

Bob

 

[reb78]

There is always that approach, any leak though will worsen as time goes on.

Bob

Thats my worry.

Trouble is, at the moment, I am not sure I have confirmed a leak - I am still suspicious that one of the meters is misreading but on here folks say that over reading is unlikely.

The lower stop tap was turned off for 12 hours last night and the main meter moved by six litres again. BUT the main meter still reads 200 litres more use in a 24 hour period compared to the bottom meter that we have put in. The one we installed was bought from a place that specialises in this gear locally (i.e. it wasn't a dodgy cheap ebay meter) and is about 6 weeks old. The main meter is obviously the one the water board fit.

 

[gaz1]

did you photo this movement before and after

reason for this is its active proof that you are having movement at the meter when no supply is on

thats a water board issue

only saying as you can get actual proof over days of testing

if i was testing a meter id be testing it as close to the mains meter in a very short run of pipe with no joins in other than connections between them

 

[reb78]

Yep - I always take a picture. The main meter moved (only 6 litres 9pm to 9am) and the meter we installed stayed exactly the same with no movement overnight (expected as the stop tap to isolate our entire property is directly before it).

I hear what you are saying about testing by putting the second meter in next to the first, but there isnt a lot of space on that verge to do that and I dont want to create a bigger problem by working in a small space on what is probably the only remaining but of black alkathene left in the run.

I might bite the bullet and just ask SWW to test the meter - if they find no fault i believe i have to pay them for the service.

 

[jimbo84]

Yep - I always take a picture. The main meter moved (only 6 litres 9pm to 9am) and the meter we installed stayed exactly the same with no movement overnight (expected as the stop tap to isolate our entire property is directly before it).

I hear what you are saying about testing by putting the second meter in next to the first, but there isnt a lot of space on that verge to do that and I dont want to create a bigger problem by working in a small space on what is probably the only remaining but of black alkathene left in the run.

I might bite the bullet and just ask SWW to test the meter - if they find no fault i believe i have to pay them for the service.

This info about meter testing might help. Might be a different company but I imagine they all have a similar policy. https://www.southernwater.co.uk/media/3195/meter-accuracy-policy.pdf

It might just be easier for them to replace the meter, it sounds like if it's an old one they may do that anyway and not bother with the testing.

 

[gaz1]

you already have active proof over days of testing your lines, that you have unknown movement on the meter whilst theres no service to the property

they kinda cant argue that one

this is what we have done. We put a stop in half way. Main Meter doesnt change.

We put a stop in 1/4 of the way from our land. Main Meter doesnt change.

We put a stop in 1/8 of the way from our land and the main doesn’t change

That leaves us with the last 1/8th of pipe suspect.

so your right down to number 4 to test your pipes then ?

id disconnect before your meter and test that length of pipe the final test it the stop tap inside of your property depending on if you have no leaks on the outside points

 

[dobbslc]

'The main meter moved (only 6 litres 9pm to 9am)'
How many litres does your toilet cistern hold?
If you turn off the main stop cock there's still going to be pressure in the pipe and at that length of run if someone flushes the toilet it'll probably be able to fill it. There's your 6 litre. Same again if someone turns on a tap

 

[reb78]

you already have active proof over days of testing your lines, that you have unknown movement on the meter whilst theres no service to the property

they kinda cant argue that one



so your right down to number 4 to test your pipes then ?

id disconnect before your meter and test that length of pipe the final test it the stop tap inside of your property depending on if you have no leaks on the outside points

Number 4 is actually currently a join as we have run out of spare stop taps - we tested this some time ago and I don't think there was any meter movement. So we have turned off the stop cock at the bottom by the second meter overnight and that recorded the 6l movement at the main meter - i am not convinced this is a leak? It is more than from point 3 and above though where the numbers didnt change at all, but it is nowhere near 200l.

Testing the house is fine, but we do have pipework to our own sheds before the house, so we cant isolate that other than the stop tap by the second meter we are talking about above. The meter we have installed is before our house and sheds though so that will register any loss on this section and since it always reads less in the same period than the one on the road we either have a leak above the meter we installed or one of them is mis-reading?

 

[reb78]

'The main meter moved (only 6 litres 9pm to 9am)'
How many litres does your toilet cistern hold?
If you turn off the main stop cock there's still going to be pressure in the pipe and at that length of run if someone flushes the toilet it'll probably be able to fill it. There's your 6 litre. Same again if someone turns on a tap

But the meter I am reading is isolated from the house from first reading to second reading 12 hours later as i have isolated the supply where it enters our property completely so even if i flush the toilet it cant draw from the main?!

 

[sg66]

If you draw 100ltrs off over a short period of time in one go take pics of both meters before and after your going to tell yourself if the meters out.

A water meter ai t going to move on its own, there is not enough give in the pipe even at that length for 6ltrs to be lost to pipe stretching, its already under pressure, 6ltrs indicates a leak, leaks rarely get better.

 

[brightspark]

if u must just buy one of these and bung one end up pressure test it job done https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/3240639670...MIyYDS48Xv6AIVDe3tCh2GAAqtEAQYAyABEgJSwPD_BwE

 

[gaz1]

reb your not getting me since you have done the tests right down, its best to run the last test 2 tests

this is the final test of your pipe work from the road before your new meter install not forgetting stop taps always weep from the bib nut on top

6 litres could be down to leaking join points but only very slight drip drip points on these connections

disconect the end and just fit a blank end on the pipe and test it same for the meter side of it

 

[sg66]

6ltrs ain't a drip and it's way more for what ever reason when in normal use, rule in or out meters and go from there.

 

[m_c]

Do water meters have a non-return valve/one way counter mechanism so they only ever increase?

If so, how much will 1.5miles of pipe capacity change as the pressure fluctuates throughout the day?