Worth an upgrade?

[Mininozzle]

Hello,

This forum is a great resource, I regularly come back to it but mostly in a "Lurking" capacity. I am grateful being able refer to pros or experts and just as grateful reading the troubles that other people are having and more importantly how they are tackling the problem.

I've had a Clarke 151TE for 10 years or so, I do a little welding a car panels, make up wheeled frames, make gates out of old spanner etc. All steel/stainless work for the moment. I use HobbyWeld Argon CO2 mix with a 2 gauge regulator and 0.6mm wire. I've replaced the earth clamp with a better one, the supplied one was a bit weak.

My question...

I'm getting back into bodywork again, and have a little cash to spend. My technique could always do with improvement, but should I also invest in a new MIG machine? What does a £600-£700 (I recognise that’s still cheap in the grand scheme) machine do better than my current Clarke box. My Clarke is the transformer kind rather than an electronic inverter, but I don't move it around so weight doesn't matter so much. Having a longer torch lead would be useful so I assume this needs a better drive to do it. Should I just retro-fit a eurotorch and carry on?

Something that does (did) appeal was to get a TIG machine but I later read and found TIG isn't ideal for bodywork as the panels more liable to warping. No problem... then I noted that some Inverter machines are capable of MMA, MIG and TIG. And some even plasma cutting. Cautious that the jack of all trades as also the master of none.... but I don't need a master, just something that is as at least as good as my Clarke, but with potential TIG capability for other jobs. I recognise none of them will do Ali in TIG mode, as I would need an AC machine for that.

If I can get a 3-in-1 with a longer euro torch, mated up with my existing regulator that would work well.

But my current technique when positional welding (perhaps my technique is too amateur) is just the up the wire speed a little to keep the pool filled, and some of the machines with "synergy" things (marketing chaff!) concern me that the only control is workpiece thickness and then it links wire speed and voltage together without individual adjustment

Other than weight, is there another advantage of an inverter unit over a transformer one?

I don't think the Clarke as any burnback control (certainly no adjustment for it). Is it a worthy feature to look for?

Telwin, IFL, R-Tec, Cros-ARC, Sip Weldmate…. Any in this list I would do well to avoid????

A lot of the info/reviews out there on the web are from sham review sites that are actually just a front for aggregating Amazon.com traders together. Many of the brands under “scrutiny” are also USA only (clearly still China boxes)

Nozzle

 

[paulo1974]

my 2 cents
I have a similar machine a iwm mig 140 (20 to 140 amp 4 steps) and i´m upgrading it. I have a inverter mig a 50 to 250amp chinese.
the upgrade will cost about 60 euros. (relay, pwm module, 24vdc psu, 230 gas valve,and eurotorch and connector. i´m upgrading it because its mine, and i like to tweak stuff. There also the matter that its a simple machine here if something goes wrong its easy to fix.
But i think if you can get a low amp inverter mig welder i´ll go for it. it will not last as long as the clarke and if it fail, the repair will be costly.
Buy a mig welder only because if you buy a multi welder machine it will do "everything" but it will be not great at everything As you live in the Uk , i whould start browsing around for a second hand second grade brand machine. A first brand like fronius, ewn, miller or lincoln will be to costly for the job at hand.
The synergic option will help but not solve the problem. the welder has to know what he is doing the synergic mode will only take a lot of guessing from the welder.

 

[MoreWellie]

We used to have Clarke 151te as our first welder and it was good to us, it got compliments from experienced welders especially regarding the torch.

We moved up to an Oxford mainly because we needed to weld thicker metal than the clarke could manage. Initially the size of an MB25 torch was a shock but have quickly become more used to it although there are still times when it would be easier to get the Clarke torch in

The 3 and 4 metre torches are really useful to avoid having to move the welder so often but then it is was lot easier to move the Clarke to where you want to weld and definitely much much easier if you want to take the welder somewhere else to work

I think the Clarke works as is and I would avoid changing it over to euro torch as you will probably then want to upgrade the wire feed and eventually you will decide that you should really have left it as standard where everything matched. I certainly would suggest maintaining the torch as we overheated our swan neck but the readily available parts let us return it to fully working condition

The Clarke is still in our family giving good service and I see very little, if any, difference using the Oxford on bodywork compared to the Clarke apart from the torch length and diameter

A small plus for the Clarke is the lower gas usage as you can set a lower flow rate for the smaller shroud

 

[mr haynes]

Does your machine work as it should? Do you feel it meets your welding requirements? If so i would consider a euro torch conversion if longer needed, and save your money or, better still, buy more toys

 

[hotponyshoes]

The synergic settings are pretty handy if you swap and change what you are welding much.
If you just weld the same thing time and again then synergic is not that useful as once you have it set up you won't need to change anything.

Synergic basically saves you looking up the settings on a table, tell the welder what wire you are using then dial in the material thickness and all the ones I have used seem to do pretty good welds just from that. Also, on all the ones I have used, you can tweak the settings and save them as required. Some welders (esab rebel for one) have a 'learning' feature and will adjust themselves for the operators torch position and distance and so on.

I expect the performance of a multi-process machine will depend on what you spend. The higher end units should be pretty good on all processes and pretty reliable. Personally I would not buy a cheap all-in-one, you already have a mig so you could buy a cheap tig and sell it on if you dont like it.

Not many machines are supplied with a long torch, a lot of the higher end ones dont come with a torch at all so if you want a longer one you could buy one now and see how it works on the clarke as you can keep it if you do upgrade.
It would cost you 30quid or so to fit a euro connector to the clarke but might benefit you a little if it came to selling it. Drive upgrades can be more complicated and costly and I dont think I would go that far on a budget machine.

Advantages of a inverter over a transformer are weight (you say not an issue but a inverter with a short torch can be moved to the job and a short torch might feed better than a longer one plus is cheaper to replace)
Generally get more control on an inverter, burn back and so on (although I haven't seen any transformer units recently and some of them might have just as many features)
More options to make money back from the purchase by taking it out to do site work and most of them will cope with most farm type repairs running from a generator or 13a extension lead

 

[Wallace]

I looked at fitting a Euro torch to my old Einhell Mig, ended up saving the hassle and put the cash towards a Portamig 215. Before selling the old Mig to a friend I went through it thoroughly and found the wire feed grease was like glue. Once cleaned and freshly greased the old machine had its sparkle back and I partially regretted buying the new machine.

It might be worth giving your machine a service.

 

[paulo1974]

Before i get accused of hijacked the thread my upgrade to my welder focus on the wire feed motor. mine mig controls the motor by voltage so less speed also less torque. on the lower setting my 24vdc motor only gets 5,6 v on 7 speed of 10, as using a pulse module i can get the 24volts from 0% to 100% pulse.
This means that on 1 second of time if i put it at 10% i get 1/10 of a second at 24volts. I can get slow speed but i wont sacrifice the torque.
The euro torch conversion is a plus because i have already a eurotorch and i replace the linner easier and cheaper that clarke wire linner. In portugal the single phase mig are hard to find and they are costly around 400 to 500 euros. the betters deals comes on the 3 phase units but i only have single phase 16A or 25A.

 

[Wallace]

@paulo1974 Those mods are truly impressive and worthy of a thread own their own, please post them as they will generate a lot of interest.

I think the original post suggests an outgrowth of the machine and an upgrade may be the way forward, not necessarily the machine itself but a sensible replelacment.

 

[Mininozzle]

Hello one and all,
Thanks so much for all your input. I was actually expecting the Clarke to get a bit of a slating for being trash in every area (except price) but perhaps it's not as cheesy as I initially thought. Adding the euro-torch connector is evidently quite achievable. I do wonder though, with the solenoid in the case rather than a valve in the torch, there is a lot larger volume of gas in the hose which will just leak out! Or does a Eurotorch also have a valve in the handle too? Being able to run a little of the gas through with striking is actually quite handy I find!

An interesting observation from Paulo1974.. suggests you've fitted a PWM control? Potential for burn-back control tool then!

Telwin, IFL, R-Tec, Cros-ARC, Sip Weldmate…. Any in this list I would do well to avoid???? Indeed Weldeqip closely associated with this forum stock the IFL multi-process model so it can't be that bad, right?!?! I need to find a "Practical Classic" review or similar

 

[hotponyshoes]

I would not say the clarke is trash as It depends what you want to use it for, it's not a lot of use in a production setting but for the odd bit of car body work where you will mostly be doing series of tacks and grinding most of the weld off anyway I expect it will be fine for occasional use. One advantage is most of the spare tips and stuff are available from places like halfords on a sunday morning although you will pay the price for them!

Unless you want to do it for fun I would not go wild on upgrading a machine though as eventually you will hit its limits and realise the money and time spent on it might have been better off put towards a better machine in the first place.
If you are happy with a transformer type machine there will be plenty of used, high end machines within your budget with probably enough change to buy a cheap tig inverter as well.
If you have 3phase power then you can get some serious kit for not a lot of money.

Pretty much every euro welder has the valve in the case, I dont think I have ever seen a valve mig torch (tig ones are more common).
In theory the gas in the torch could leak out but I have never noticed it to be an issue. Higher end machines have a purge button which I normally use to check the flow rate after changing a torch/the gas etc. You can also set a pre flow on some which would expel any air that had gotten into the torch.
If you only have a single stage regulator you will get a surge every time you pull the trigger anyway which is probably enough gas to give the weld a good start.

 

[Munkul]

Those brands - they're all much of a muchness. In general, the higher the amps, the better the build quality, although not always the case. e.g. a 130 amp machine is generally cheaper built than a 180 or 200 amp machine.

The inverter machines... there's pros and cons, but again, in general, an inverter machine will have a slightly better quality feed mechanism, as well as being much easier to adjust/fine-tune. All synergic welders still allow you to fine-tune the wirespeed or voltage, in fact most have a manual mode as well.

The two I'd be looking at are IFL or R-tech, but ideally find a bricks-and-mortar welding dealer to buy from, so you can easily resolve any problems face-to-face. It's not like buying most tools - there's loads to either go wrong, or set up incorrectly.

For your use, unless you think you're limited with the machine you have, or you want more control over the weld than the Clarke can give you, I'd probably save my money.

Then again, if you happen to try a top quality MIG like a Kemppi, you might think the difference is night and day, and decide then and there that you want a smoother, more powerful machine.

 

[hotponyshoes]

Agree with munkul, if you are swapping from a car wing to a workbench frame its handy to have a synergic to just twiddle one knob and change from 0.8mm to 3.2mm thickness and just start welding.

If you dont use it for 3 weeks inbetween those 2 jobs though it's not really a massive effort to change the setup manually and it's easy enough to put some paint marks by the dials or make some notes on paper/phone of what settings work for you.
There is not really anything to loose using what you have so you could get started with that then post up on here if you run into any problems and somebody will tell you if its technique or machine that's wrong!

Will also give you a chance to work out where the budget is best spent, after a bit of work you might find you might find a plasma cutter or a welding bench might be more useful than a better welder.

 

[paulo1974]

ok for neil my thought about transformer vs inverter
the transformer wins on time it last (20 years machines are not uncommon) ,the easy and cost of repairs,roughness
the inverter wins on energy needed for a given amperage, linear amperage control (if your transformer has many power steps it will be about the same) weight,easy to carry around.

Mods similar to mine can been see on clarks or sip welder directory.

 

[Mininozzle]

Sorry it has taken a while to get back, I have been waiting for a little admin tasks to be sorted before posting again.

I'll consider the Euro-socket adaption if I need a longer torch.. but then will I need to update the wire drive because it's feeding through a much longer tube? Perhaps not as the current tube is a small steel coiled conduit and I assume a Eurotorch one would be lower friction anyway (even if not Teflon for ali wire).

Unfortunately I don't have access to a top quality machine to try it out for chalk/cheese comparison

Mininozzle

 

[Memmeddu]

Sorry it has taken a while to get back, I have been waiting for a little admin tasks to be sorted before posting again.

I'll consider the Euro-socket adaption if I need a longer torch.. but then will I need to update the wire drive because it's feeding through a much longer tube? Perhaps not as the current tube is a small steel coiled conduit and I assume a Eurotorch one would be lower friction anyway (even if not Teflon for ali wire).

Unfortunately I don't have access to a top quality machine to try it out for chalk/cheese comparison

Mininozzle

I think that you will spend more money trying to upgrade this welder than go out and search good used transformer based mig welder