Wood working lathes & safety ..HELP !

[DAPPH]

I've also put this post in another social community website as I need as many different opinion as I can get before I make my final decision .

I've been asked to design and help make some transparent safety screens so that people doing a council approved lathe work course can use their lathes in a training environment in a local community hall building .
I'm assuming it is to stop any one getting hurt if a work piece or chisel flies out the lathe work area because it's not being fitted or used correctly .

The courses are free but the county council foots the bill for the tutor of this vocational hobby skill .

Myself I think I'm on a hiding to nothing for I cannot say that the screens to be made to comply with a set safety standard nor am I registered as the trained qualified producer of the said safety screens .

The screens are supposed to be fixed to a suspended wooden floor with " a couple of screws " in the words of the guy who is hoping to run the training course. I feel that the wooden floor is around 100 yrs old and to my mind is totally unsuitable for anchoring screens that do not have a large supporting foot . Any large strong supporting foot a protruding above the floor level is liable to trip someone up and get them falling or knocking some one else into a running lathe etc .

I'm contemplating two things:-
Telling him & the council that fixing the screens made of a 1/4 " EXPAMET mesh with edging strips as removable lift in lift out items to each wood lathe chassis is a safer and better option .

The second is that :- having long heavy clear soft plastic strip curtains down to the ground ( think forklift truck drive through 400 mm wide overlapping flaps ) hanging off a supported rail system similar to the way hospital beds curtains are hung is an even better option as at the end of the day all curtains can be drawn back , the floor space easily cleaned and the lathes moved back to go along the outer walls as this will allow other community groups to use the cleared area .

Your thoughts are much appreciated especially those of you who work in risk assessment and HASAW


On the same theme does any one know of any reasons as to why the said lathes cannot be put on wheeled frames that have screw down machine feet to hold them in place whilst being used ?

Site owners I'm copying & pasting this post to put into another more engineering environment led website as well for I don't want to unintentionally do the wrong thing and find I'm being sued as a result .

 

[bigegg]

My first thought is "run away"
Do you have public liability insurance to cover you when someone gets a boo boo on their finger and the council decide to blame you?

 

[cumbriasteve]

That sounds like one of those jobs I tend to run away from very fast, too much of a headache, churches and councils were always my pet hate as customers

To protect yourself I think if you plan to accept the project then you must be provided with detailed drawings and specs of the materials they require used and the fitting method they have assessed from the council that is approving the work.

 

[ford34/2]

Just a reminder as to centrifugal power, we had two spindle moulders back to back no extraction so wood shavings came out the guard to the rear, we had a sheet of 3/4" ply between the machines, a cutter came out of a whitehill clamp style cutter block, not a safety block and went straight through the 3/4" ply. Fortunately it was Sat morn O/time and the other spindle man didn't work overtime. Nothing much was done, but its a lesson to try and remember, that a 5" block at 6000RPM is lethal. Together with maybe what could have been a slightly worn block a 5/32" cutter maybe 11/2 square inches.
Stan

 

[DAPPH]

Guys you've been tremendously helpful so far ..keep it coming please.

 

[Parm]

The only open forum answer I can give you is WALK AWAY

Think PUWER Regs

 

[BrokenBiker]

Leave it alone and let someone else take the hit...

if things go wrong you are in for a world of hurt.

if you are not qualified/insured to make and instal protective screens or machine guarding then this is not the job for you and the council should already know this and be fearful fo the wrath of HSE as the HASAWA should still apply here as they are giving tuition under supervision so are responsible for the safety of all people involved even if they arent paying to be there...if something goes wrong they will be incredibly quick to pass the buck onto the guy that made the shields

 

[Robotstar5]

Probably have to comply with this lot too

2006/42/EC
BS EN 14120:2015
BS EN 12100:2003
P.U.W.E.R 98

 

[Kent]

Council order them with drawings and any specification required
You have a contract to supply only in accordance with thier spec

I might have to fight a similar case soon but I have at least a very clear contract - do I wish I had never done it? Yes but hindsight is a wonderful thing

If you don't want or need it don't do it

 

[ibrooks]

Our local club has the lathes on wheels. They are on cast frames and across the bottom of the legs they have added 3x2 wooden "stringers" at each end. Those have another stringer attached with hinges which has castors. You lift one end of the lathe and the second block is swung under the first which brings the castors under them, repeat at the other end and the thing is mobile. When not in use they hinge out of the way and the whole thing sits on it's original feet as designed by the manufacturer (mostly Record Power). I can try for a drawing of some sort at a later time if it's of interest.

As for the guards - I'd imagine something similar to a metal lathe as they'll spit things out at a fair rate if it goes wrong and whilst they don't tend to spin as fast the lumps of stuff tend to be far heavier so the potential energy is going to be similar. I'd certainly be looking at something that attaches to the lathe as that means the positioning is "correct" (or at least as designed) every time even if the lathe isn't in the same position.

That said they don't have guards on the machines and they do have Public liability insurance which is arranged through the association of wood-turners. I know the association give them requirements and guidelines so it's not a case of them working at risk as a recent one I was a little involved in was a public demo where the insurance wouldn't cover them for dust inhalation by the spectators so they couldn't demo sanding and some of the finishing steps. We had to make a bunch of the demo pieces at various stages so they could show what it would look like after the process they weren't allowed to do "here's one I prepared earlier"

It might be worth speaking to the association to get their view on the requirements.

Iain

 

[Robotstar5]

Just specify PPE required by onlookers?...

 

[Parm]

Our local club has the lathes on wheels. They are on cast frames and across the bottom of the legs they have added 3x2 wooden "stringers" at each end. Those have another stringer attached with hinges which has castors. You lift one end of the lathe and the second block is swung under the first which brings the castors under them, repeat at the other end and the thing is mobile. When not in use they hinge out of the way and the whole thing sits on it's original feet as designed by the manufacturer (mostly Record Power). I can try for a drawing of some sort at a later time if it's of interest.

As for the guards - I'd imagine something similar to a metal lathe as they'll spit things out at a fair rate if it goes wrong and whilst they don't tend to spin as fast the lumps of stuff tend to be far heavier so the potential energy is going to be similar. I'd certainly be looking at something that attaches to the lathe as that means the positioning is "correct" (or at least as designed) every time even if the lathe isn't in the same position.

That said they don't have guards on the machines and they do have Public liability insurance which is arranged through the association of wood-turners. I know the association give them requirements and guidelines so it's not a case of them working at risk as a recent one I was a little involved in was a public demo where the insurance wouldn't cover them for dust inhalation by the spectators so they couldn't demo sanding and some of the finishing steps. We had to make a bunch of the demo pieces at various stages so they could show what it would look like after the process they weren't allowed to do "here's one I prepared earlier"

It might be worth speaking to the association to get their view on the requirements.

Iain

Seems a little odd as dust is one of the easiest hazards to control. A simple portable Nederman type flexible arm or even a highly quality industrial vacuum cleaner would more than adequately control the dust. It's all the other hazards such as imbalanced work, ejected debris and risk of flying tools etc that are more difficult to control

And what about the fine dust created during the actual turning process

 

[mike os]

To protect the operator or others?

If the operator, forget it...

If to create individual or bays or spectators screening most shows use 6mm polycarbonate

 

[Wedg1e]

Jesus, whatever happened to common sense and the reasonable man?
How about, just like you know when you get on a motorcycle that it might be a tad unstable and if you wobble into something hard it might hurt, some sort of form you have to sign saying "I accept this might go a bit wrong and if it does tough titty, I'm a grown-up and will take my chances"...? - or else don't attend the course, stay in bed and wrap yourself in cotton wool.

I'd be quite happy to sign one of those instead of having to wear hard hats (in a concrete culvert, what's going to land on my head?), high-vis (although I suppose when a building falls on you it makes it easier to find the body) and safety glasses instead of reading specs (although they're made from the same stuff, one has a silly BS number on and one doesn't. I had a mate whose bike visor still shattered despite having all the requisite numbers).

Perhaps once we escape from Cold... er, can make our own rules again things might loosen up... but I doubt it.

 

[roofman]

Before you do run get an upfront part payment

 

[DAPPH]

I'm afraid that our universities produce far too many solicitors who are only too eager to weasel word money out of someones pocket , skim off a large amount and hand the small change over to some one who breaks a finger nail or spills a cup of MacDonalds coffee down themselves.

The screens etc. are not happening for reasons of being crapped on should anything ever happen & the set up not stop a seven inch dia 3 foot log flying out the lathe , taking someones head off along with any screen I might have made .
I've had enough crap from solicitors to last me two lifetimes after being disabled at work twice due to other peoples acts & omissions .

So thanks Guys , you have given me what I really knew deep down .. I 'll be leaving it alone .

Mods can you now lock this thread please as It has served its purpose .

Thanks
Dave