Which argon mix to go for?

  1. Tally Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    england
    So i am about to run out of my current 20l tank of (83% argon 15% co2 2% 02) I normally do spray but my machine is limited to 26v so i have to be really careful on what wirefeed i use as its very easy to go into glob transfer which is nasty af.. I use a 1mm solid wire but i am thinking of changing the gas to (93% argon 5% co2 2% 02).. To help encourage spray transfer on higher wirefeed speeds etc.. would this be worth it? and what could i do to get better spray?

    Right now i can get it to a hiss as long i get the perfect stick out otherwise it starts to pop..

    i also have a roll of 0.8 wire but i cant seem to get it into spray..
     
  2. Ed. Member

    The 93Ar.5CO.2O2 gas mix, will give you a hotter arc so should be better on lower volts but the mix with the higher CO2 would be better for thicker metal giving you deeper penetration, having said that, for what I weld I just use the 93.5.2 mix on metal up to 16mm and no dramas with it. Seeing as you are using 20l bottles I doubt that your welder would be up to that task and that you would not be welding those sort of thicknesses anyway. So for general use on lighter metal with a smaller welder it should be great.
     
    Dcal likes this.
  3. Tally Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    england
    I appreciate the feed back but its not really what i was asking :P im asking if the different mix ratio will help with the transition to spray because right now its very easy to slip into glob if i get the stick out wrong. Im using a esab rebel 235 so the amps are there just the voltage is little low.. so im wondering if the higher argon in the mix can compensate the transition
     
  4. tom 748

    tom 748 Member

    Messages:
    156
    Location:
    scotland
    no
     
    2metre likes this.
  5. 123hotchef Member

    Messages:
    9,031
    Location:
    Kent
    i would go for the 93% argon 5% co2 2% 02 if you can get it. I was limited with my last bottle but you probably wont notice much difference between the 2 mixes.
    what is the problem with the .8 wire? thats all I use
     
  6. Tally Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    england
    I cant seem to get it into spray properly.. if i crank the wirefeed up too much it goes into a really hot dip mode.. but too low and i get a glob there seems to be no inbetween? what settings would you recommend? my max voltage is 26 and i can get the wirefeed all the way to 17 meters.. this is for the 0.8mm wire.. i can get a spray going on the 1mm but like i said its very easy to loose it
     
  7. The first thing to consider is what are you welding ie material thickness, joint design, welding position
     
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  8. Ed. Member

    From what I understand the 5%CO2 disassociates into more O2 and CO which combined with the existing 2%O2 makes the arc hotter, having more CO2 reduces the energy and therefore the arc doesn't get as hot and subsequently you will need more voltage to compensate (which your machine can't do). So if your welder only puts out 26V you are probably borderline but the 93/5/2 mix will be better by making a hotter arc, so I can't see why you would not get spray on the 1.0mm at 26V. You might also be at the limit of your machine, it's a bit of a balancing act between the gasses, to get a better opinion you might want to talk to @TechnicAl. I think he knows more about this sort of stuff than most.
     
    Parm likes this.
  9. Tally Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    england
    Yee i messaged him.. gave a answer that is useful as a chocolate tea pot lol
     
  10. Country Joe Argoshield Dark

    Messages:
    1,332
    Location:
    Somerset - United Kingdom
    It'll be correct though - the guy really does know his onions!

    All the Best,
    CJ

    PS My voltage tops out at 26, (Minarcmig EVO 200) but I only use 0.8mm wire.
    (Just to keep things on topic!)
     
  11. Tally Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    england
    it was correct but completely missed the question i actually asked.. So you run a spray on yours ? what gas mix you on
     
  12. Argon is easily ionised so the more argon in the mix, the lower voltage you will need to get into spray transfer, but CO2 “carries more heat” across the arc so therefore has a direct effect on fusion, deposition rates etc and you need a gas with higher CO2 levels to weld thicker materials otherwise you can get a weld that may look OK on the surface but will have unsatisfactory levels of fusion
     
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  13. Wozzaaah

    Wozzaaah The wizard of woz Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,658
    Wiltshire, UK
    If you send someone an unsolicited PM asking for their advice but feel they haven’t responded as you think they should, at least have the decency to thank them for taking the time to respond rather than slate them, eh?
    I doubt there’s many members on here as knowledgable as Al.
    Making people feel worthless will only discourage them from helping others out on the forum who may be more appreciative of their knowledge and experience.
     
  14. Tally Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    england
    If they can not be bothered to advise then they should of just ignored my message as most normal people do. I didn't force him to give me a answer so bad that would make me question his reputation on the matter
     
  15. Tally Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    england
    Okay well ill see what happens when i do go for the higher mix.. hopefully it will help the transition.. its a bit of a weird one because the machine can do it its just very easy to slip out of it
     
  16. Country Joe Argoshield Dark

    Messages:
    1,332
    Location:
    Somerset - United Kingdom
    I have to be adaptable - changing settings for various welds on different joints, with different thicknesses in slightly differeng positions most of the time - so wouldn't have the need or the time to chase a specific deposition method for each and every separate weld.

    Having said that, if I was regularly doing long runs, I'd be more likely to get it tuned to a more "custom" setting than using the usual parameters that are pre-programmed in for the various settings.

    If it happens to be in spray for a while, (which strangely happened more frequently using a SIP that I previously owned) I just see it as a little extra "up" in my day - a bit like getting peelers when using MMA.

    For reference I'm using Lincoln SupraMig in 0.8mm, along with argoshield light.

    I'll admit that I don't actually know the exact proportions of the mix, aside from the obvious agon & carbon-dioxide.
    I didn't even know that it had any thing more in it (until I checked just then, mid-post) and it's apparently got 2% oxygen, too!

    I might try to see if I can easily get it into spray or not, (but I suspect I'll end up way-laid & forget) - but I'll try to give it a go.
    If I manage, I'll post to say either way.

    All the Best,
    CJ
     
  17. Country Joe Argoshield Dark

    Messages:
    1,332
    Location:
    Somerset - United Kingdom
    Ok, just gave it a go.

    I chopped off a piece of 6mm off a 5" wide piece of strip, and just using the auto settings, turned it right up.

    In it's immediate (un-altered) setting it wouldn't, but by turning the "arc length trimmer" control (as it's called, but only when you're in the "auto" settings) all the way up, it does go into spray - and seems to be able to keep it there.

    In fact, this was the only setting (of the three that I tried, anyway) where the penetration was more than "just visible" on the rear, but had roughened the surface a bit.
    By contrast, having the same control turned all the way in the other direction caused me to have to weld very, very slowly to get it to penetrate properly.

    I didn't try to do this using manual settings though, as I assumed it would limit me to a max (stated in the manual) voltage of 26v, just to kick off with, and then not deviate from the manually-entered setting.

    Obviously I couldn't see what was going on with the display while I was welding, but when I stopped, it showed the voltage as 27.1v (out of a possible 26v?) and the wire-feed speed was shown as 13.0 m/min, which is the stated maximum wire output.

    Dunno if this helps at all - but I'd been wondering if I could get it into (and, I suupose, stay in) spray, using what I'd call my "usual consumables", and hadn't actually got around to specifically finding out - until now.

    Having a higher wire out-put speed may help, (as it also plays a part in achieving spray) in which case I'd expect it to be easier using your (Esab 235?), than on this Kemppi?

    All the Best,
    CJ
     
  18. Tally Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    england
    Yeah setting wise my machine is limited to 26v but i have seen it jump around from 24-29v during use.. this is on manual mig btw so you was able to get a spray going pretty well on 26v on that mix? but yeah im using a esab 235.. the kemppi kempact 251's can go upto 30v as i understand. But yeah i if i tried to use SMIG id never get into a spray on mine i have to use manual mig to get spray going.. Was it really sensitive to stick out ? or did it stay in spray no matter what you did for the most part? you on a 0.8mm wire right? im using a 1mm

    But are you able to find out the exact comp of the mix you using? is a 15percent co2 or a 5 percent?
     
  19. Country Joe Argoshield Dark

    Messages:
    1,332
    Location:
    Somerset - United Kingdom
    Well I varied it a bit, but did have quite a decent stick-out, maybe slighly more than usual, as I was having a bit of a closer than normal look at the arc.

    A couple of times I could momentarily see a ball form on the end of the wire, but the noticeably different "hissing" sound stayed the same, and there wasn't really any spatter, either.
    Especially compared to the much lower-amp close work that I'd been doing directly before, which was a bit spitty. But I don't mid a bit of clean-up, after!

    I might give it another try later, using the manual controls - but I'd also quite like to see the display while I'm welding, too.

    And all of this does make me wonder what it peaks out at, while my back is turned, and I can't look at the display.
    Next time some-one shows up while I'm welding, I might just find out - (although it's possibly a bit too memory dependant for me, I fear, just to begin with!)

    Not to mention, the irritation of being interrupted might also help me forget, along with the too-often asked questions like "Can I do some of that?", or "Are those sparklers, over there?" and, of course the more basic ones "Is it really hot?" and "What's this?"!

    I sometimes think that they're starting to believe the only phrases I know to be "Just stand still" and "Don't touch that" with precious few variations!
    Then it'll have to be "walk-in" coherent enough to concentrate, and that I can trust to turn my back on and weld away.

    Then I''ll get the next phase of questions:- "Why d'you want to know this info?" or even "Why can't you read it yourself?"

    This is before even getting to the point of extracting the relevant info from said "assistant" - but maybe I'll get them to video it using their phone - so they can't break (or even start trying to eat!) anything else, while I'm not looking!

    With my type of visitors, (as Captain Lawrence Oates reportedly once said), "I may be some time" - bearing in mind, you've just got to be selective, sometimes!

    Not had any "visitors" today, as of yet - I wonder why?
    I don't even look remotely like Mr Meldrew!

    All the Best,
    CJ

    Hey, was that a rant? I duuno. If it was - sorry! You do realise it's not aimed at you!?
     
    a111r likes this.
  20. TechnicAl

    TechnicAl Member

    Messages:
    7,088
    Location:
    Rotherham
    Ive bitten my lip so far...but enough is enough

    So I get a PM from TALLY....and I quote...."Hi i was told to come to you about mig welding gases since you know alot more about it

    the link for the thread is here.. whats your take?"


    In other words I want you to help but I cant be bothered to ask you a direct question...I want you to go look for it......then he moans because I answer something he obviously doesnt want to hear

    So what do I get in reply "sigh...at least read the thread bud thanks for nothing"

    and then the comments above

    Do we not have Moderators anymore?

     
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