What steel for forging?

[BrokenBiker]

So, whilst telling myself I need to save money for a new car...ive decided instead to buy a forge...

So, with that in mind, what steel would be suitable for making things such as hammers, flatters and other such tools that would need to be hardened?

edit, its a vevor twin torch propane furnace, the hexagonal type one and i have also ordered some fire brick to cap the back off and partially block the front off to retain heat

 

[Screwdriver]

Typically you would use a mild steel for the body and forge weld a hardened steel face for the tool.

You DO NOT want to be forging hardenable steel by hand. Ask me how I know.

Good luck forge welding, you really need a coke forge or a proper monster gas version.

 

[Kram]

I've not done forging myself but plain medium carbon steel if you want to harden it, I dont imagine it would make much difference VS mild for the forging process as at that temperature it has no effect.

If it needs a cutting edge then a tool steel could work.

There are better grades of steel but they are likely more complex to anneal and harden, I can imagine chromed steels could give problems.
CR-V steel parts are quite commonly available if you wanted to try it.

 

[BrokenBiker]

I've not done forging myself but plain medium carbon steel if you want to harden it, I dont imagine it would make much difference VS mild for the forging process as at that temperature it has no effect.

If it needs a cutting edge then a tool steel could work.

There are better grades of steel but they are likely more complex to anneal and harden, I can imagine chromed steels could give problems.
CR-V steel parts are quite commonly available if you wanted to try it.

so something like en8 maybe? i think thats a medium carbon steel. never tried hardening it before. would be ideal if it was suitable as its cheap as chips and easy to get.

as for cutting edge type tools, i have 2 old land rover coil springs off a 300tdi in the lock up that i could use as a cutting edge forged onto the end of a softer shank possibly.

the furnace im buying is a vevor twin burner, bit larger than the one doubleboost reviewed for Deb, and ive seen revies of it from the likes of alec steele and he seemed to think it would get up to forge welding temps although im not sure if he actually did try it or not.

i am also taking his acvice and getting some fire bricks to close the back off and partially close the front off to retain as much heat as possible when working.

 

[BrokenBiker]

Typically you would use a mild steel for the body and forge weld a hardened steel face for the tool.

You DO NOT want to be forging hardenable steel by hand. Ask me how I know.

Good luck forge welding, you really need a coke forge or a proper monster gas version.

while i understand what you mean, the videos ive been watching this morning whilst being weathered off they have all just used a block of whatever it is they used, made stuff like a cross pein hammer and then heat treated the whole thing so assumed that was the way forward for stuff like hammers...

i can fully see myself using softer steel and then a hardened steel edge for things like cut off tools and what not though as that just makes sense

 

[DanZac]

So, whilst telling myself I need to save money for a new car...ive decided instead to buy a forge...

Brilliant.

What use will that new car be on the one occasion in the next 30 years when you need to make a hat peg or straighten a bit of metal.

Its that sort of attitude that made Britain great.

I fully approve of your decision making.

 

[BrokenBiker]

Brilliant.

What use will that new car be on the one occasion in the next 30 years when you need to make a hat peg or straighten a bit of metal.

Its that sort of attitude that made Britain great.

I fully approve of your decision making.

exactly...cars are basically useless compared to a forge

 

[Screwdriver]

while i understand what you mean, the videos ive been watching this morning whilst being weathered off they have all just used a block of whatever it is they used, made stuff like a cross pein hammer and then heat treated the whole thing so assumed that was the way forward for stuff like hammers...

i can fully see myself using softer steel and then a hardened steel edge for things like cut off tools and what not though as that just makes sense

Generally speaking, you're not wrong but the two specific examples of hammer and flatter really need a hardened face.

Forge welding is difficult in a gas forge for two reasons. 1. you need a very high temperature, sparking hot almost to the point of burning the parent material 2. you will need to flux the faces or they oxidise and do not weld.

You probably can get the temperatures required but man, that's gonna take a ton of gas. Flux will eat away at the base of a gas forge, like after only a few attempts, once flux gets onto the base it will eat its way through like Alien blood. In a coke forge, it just forms a clinker.

The reason used to be that high quality carbon steel was a scarce and expensive resource. Now cost is not a factor, you will soon discover hand forging hardenable steel is expensive on elbows! I forge a fair bit of scrap steels like leaf spring, rebar and the leaf spring is dead hard. Rebar not so much but it's always of questionable quality. Good for tough components, not so good at edge retention.

My advice would be to try and get hold of some genuine wrought iron. There is a lot of fake "wrought" out there. People confuse mild steel "forms" which can be wrought with the name for the specific type of material. Paradoxically, it used to be super cheap but now is rare as hens teeth. A good source would be an old farmyard where they might have piles of "scrap" going back 100 odd years (!) which might have proper old school wrought iron. Typically old iron gates and fences. It will be drying up but back in the day, farms would have miles of the stuff...

Another great advantage for wrought apart from the fact it forges like butter is that it really sticks when forge welding. So you could easily start off with some san mai knife making, axes, hatchets etc. Don't think you'd be using it for tools like hammers and stuff but it would be a nice introduction to the art.

 

[Kram]

Generally speaking, you're not wrong but the two specific examples of hammer and flatter really need a hardened face.

Forge welding is difficult in a gas forge for two reasons. 1. you need a very high temperature, sparking hot almost to the point of burning the parent material 2. you will need to flux the faces or they oxidise and do not weld.

You probably can get the temperatures required but man, that's gonna take a ton of gas. Flux will eat away at the base of a gas forge, like after only a few attempts, once flux gets onto the base it will eat its way through like Alien blood. In a coke forge, it just forms a clinker.

The reason used to be that high quality carbon steel was a scarce and expensive resource. Now cost is not a factor, you will soon discover hand forging hardenable steel is expensive on elbows! I forge a fair bit of scrap steels like leaf spring, rebar and the leaf spring is dead hard. Rebar not so much but it's always of questionable quality. Good for tough components, not so good at edge retention.

My advice would be to try and get hold of some genuine wrought iron. There is a lot of fake "wrought" out there. People confuse mild steel "forms" which can be wrought with the name for the specific type of material. Paradoxically, it used to be super cheap but now is rare as hens teeth. A good source would be an old farmyard where they might have piles of "scrap" going back 100 odd years (!) which might have proper old school wrought iron. Typically old iron gates and fences. It will be drying up but back in the day, farms would have miles of the stuff...

Another great advantage for wrought apart from the fact it forges like butter is that it really sticks when forge welding. So you could easily start off with some san mai knife making, axes, hatchets etc. Don't think you'd be using it for tools like hammers and stuff but it would be a nice introduction to the art.

Your temperature is too low if the added carbon is hurting your elbow! Very simple, the part needs to be somewhat above 770c.

 

[Screwdriver]

Your temperature is too low if the added carbon is hurting your elbow! Very simple, the part needs to be somewhat above 770c.

You might be right but then I only have a single burner gas forge. Home made at that (on here somewhere).

Also I do tend to work with mystery metal quite a lot, like this for example:

I thought I could forge that into a simple bending fork. Two days later, I had run out of elbows...


<edit> Here's the beer barrel forge (at the risk of those words getting the post deleted!) https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/ye-olde-forge.77451/post-1183394

Very picture heavy post which might have some useful info for anyone building their own blacksmith emporium.

 

[BrokenBiker]

Generally speaking, you're not wrong but the two specific examples of hammer and flatter really need a hardened face.

whatever material was being used (not listed in the videos) seems to get pretty hard in the videos ive seen making a forging hammer, cross pein hammer and a flatter from one block.

the only time so far ive seen anyone using softer material then adding hardened steel is for axes really...

to be honest the main idea for me for a furnace is annealing mystery steel for machining and for heating steel for bending in 1 hit rather than doing smaller sextions with a mapp torch. my viking style sconce torches would have been a much quicker job with a furnace as i was only dealing with 300mm lengths at a time and heating it all in 1 go then bending around a form would have reduced each leg to about 40 seconds rather than the 15 mins they actually took, but that said, ive dabbled with hammer forging smaller parts in the past, mostly to flatten round bar out to make brackets so having a furnace at hand will 100% result in me wanting to forge stuff...

i already have a suitable hammer i can get started with (after a bit of rounding with a grinder) so will likely start with tongs and the likes, but would like a few larger hammers eventually

 

[Screwdriver]

whatever material was being used (not listed in the videos) seems to get pretty hard in the videos ive seen making a forging hammer, cross pein hammer and a flatter from one block.

Yep, you're not wrong. But how many of those videos are power hammer plus striker?

Your elbows will tell you if forging a hammer from hardenable steel is as much fun as you think it is!

It is well worth it though and I hope to get back into my own forge this winter. I need to make a few knives I have promised to some forum members (sorry chaps) and look forwards to playing with iron and steel as if it was plasticine. It is great fun!

 

[BrokenBiker]

Yep, you're not wrong. But how many of those videos are power hammer plus striker?

Your elbows will tell you if forging a hammer from hardenable steel is as much fun as you think it is!

It is well worth it though and I hope to get back into my own forge this winter. I need to make a few knives I have promised to some forum members (sorry chaps) and look forwards to playing with iron and steel as if it was plasticine. It is great fun!

ive only really been watching the stuff with hand tools as i wont have a power hammer or a suitable press to be able to use

this sort of thing.

i havent got an anvil as yet, thats probably a few weeks away but i have plenty to be getting on with until then, but ideally want to get some steel in ready so when the anvil is sorted i can have a go so more just after reccomensations at the moment on what grade of steel is likely to work well when hardened

 

[Screwdriver]

Look out for some old percussion hammer tools. The type builders use for demolition with either air or SDS type fittings. They are cheap as chips even new, wear out in no time and a good free/cheap source for hardenable steel stock. Most of them have a perfect shape for making into something else - that's something you can ONLY do with a forge.

Sounds almost counterproductive or possibly self defeating but a really good source for that kind of material is - a club hammer or small sledge. They're not great for forging as-is but are the right sort of material, cheap as chips and most importantly have a preexisting hole. They need a fair bit of work to get the right balance but are a lot easier to get up to snuff than a billet. Same is true for axes....

Oh yeah, I am also a big fan of Torbjorn.

 

[hotponyshoes]

There are a huge variety of steels available.
If you have a specific application then there will be at least 2 types for it..
The 'ideal' one and the one that's 'most likely to give you a decent result'

The problem with either is sourcing them in anything less than 6' lengths at £250 each.
Ok, that only works out at a tenner a hammer but it ties you into making lots of hammers..

At the same time, I wouldn't advise you to start off with a random selection of unknown material as it all works differently and you'll struggle to learn much about the properties of it if you don't know what it is.
I've bought plenty of forging kit from people who started off making stuff with unknown steel then gave up when it turned out crap.
It's usually because they didn't know how to heat treat it (because they didn't know what it was) or had chosen a material they didn't have the capability to heat treat correctly.

Forging is the easy part, basically all you need is a heat source that will get the metal hot enough for you to move it around.
Heat treating can require a lot more precision so you can get a much better result from using as'less suitable' steel that's easy to heat treat than using a 'better' steel that is harder to heat treat.

Id suggest starting off with something simple. If you want to make a hammer it will need a hole in it.
So you'll need a couple of punches/drifts.
Making those from one of the air-hardening tool steels will give you some good working practice and pretty much guaranteed results.
You can always send stuff out for heat treat if required but thats going to cost you which might be an issue if you are intending to sell the stuff you make.

There are such a variety of metals available nowadays it's not often you will 'need' to make much from 2 steels welded together.
Aside from fluxes, various 'magic potions' are available that will let you fire weld in most propane forges. As mentioned by screwdriver, these will eat the linings fairly rapidly so invest in some fire tiles/bricks or stainless foil. They also splatter out a fair way when you hit them and easily damage anything else in the workshop so some stand-mounted deflectors are useful if you don't have a huge forging area. Get a leather apron as well.

There is also a huge range of arc rods and tig filler.. last time I made flatters from 2 different metals they got welded with electric. And that's with me having access to pretty much every fire-welding method

Ps,
I am in the fortunate position of owning both a forge and a car.
I can confirm you have made the correct choice as the forge makes me a very good return on the investment.
The car does nothing but cost me money and require me to crawl around on the wet gravel to matain it and keep it running..

 

[BrokenBiker]

There are a huge variety of steels available.
If you have a specific application then there will be at least 2 types for it..
The 'ideal' one and the one that's 'most likely to give you a decent result'

The problem with either is sourcing them in anything less than 6' lengths at £250 each.
Ok, that only works out at a tenner a hammer but it ties you into making lots of hammers..

At the same time, I wouldn't advise you to start off with a random selection of unknown material as it all works differently and you'll struggle to learn much about the properties of it if you don't know what it is.
I've bought plenty of forging kit from people who started off making stuff with unknown steel then gave up when it turned out crap.
It's usually because they didn't know how to heat treat it (because they didn't know what it was) or had chosen a material they didn't have the capability to heat treat correctly.

Forging is the easy part, basically all you need is a heat source that will get the metal hot enough for you to move it around.
Heat treating can require a lot more precision so you can get a much better result from using as'less suitable' steel that's easy to heat treat than using a 'better' steel that is harder to heat treat.

Id suggest starting off with something simple. If you want to make a hammer it will need a hole in it.
So you'll need a couple of punches/drifts.
Making those from one of the air-hardening tool steels will give you some good working practice and pretty much guaranteed results.
You can always send stuff out for heat treat if required but thats going to cost you which might be an issue if you are intending to sell the stuff you make.

There are such a variety of metals available nowadays it's not often you will 'need' to make much from 2 steels welded together.
Aside from fluxes, various 'magic potions' are available that will let you fire weld in most propane forges. As mentioned by screwdriver, these will eat the linings fairly rapidly so invest in some fire tiles/bricks or stainless foil. They also splatter out a fair way when you hit them and easily damage anything else in the workshop so some stand-mounted deflectors are useful if you don't have a huge forging area. Get a leather apron as well.

There is also a huge range of arc rods and tig filler.. last time I made flatters from 2 different metals they got welded with electric. And that's with me having access to pretty much every fire-welding method

Ps,
I am in the fortunate position of owning both a forge and a car.
I can confirm you have made the correct choice as the forge makes me a very good return on the investment.
The car does nothing but cost me money and require me to crawl around on the wet gravel to matain it and keep it running..

thanks for that

as for selling stuff on, i only ever make stuff for myself these days, and for family and maybe 2 friends, and even then its only decorative or stuff like gates...its usually all just repairs to stuff they have broken though.

forge should be here by the weekend/monday and i have a place on my work route that distributes calor bottles so will stop in on the way home from work and see whats what with regards to pricing and get a bottle to start with.

as i say my main interest is annealing random things i find in the skip in work to machine into non critical things like pen mandrels for my fathers wood lathe, pen blank bushes and what not so any free steel is used, but the skip is from a HGV workshop so some of the bolts can be difficult to turn without being annealed and trying to get a large bolt up to cherry and evenly heated with a mapp torch just doesnt work.

i also do a lot with EN8 on the lathe and after a brief and incredibly half ar$ed attempt earlier with said mapp torch i did manage to harden a 65mm dia x 8mm thick puck whcih gives me confidence that it could potentially make a half decent hammer.

other things id like to make can all be made from mild or soft steels as they wont need any abrasion or wear resistance and arent impact tools, stuff like tongs, rustic looking brackets, gate latches and so on...stuff that just looks like it should be forged

one thing i would like to make having thought about it earlier is a comically small wrecking bar...i know a concrete fixer that is talking about retirement soon...he is only 5 foot so id say an 18 inch long bar should suffice as a retirement gift

 

[hotponyshoes]

Get a price on a 47kg bottle. Anything smaller is disproportionate expensive.
If you don't have the space for a 47kg see if you have an lpg pump local and use a refillable

 

[BrokenBiker]

Get a price on a 47kg bottle. Anything smaller is disproportionate expensive.
If you don't have the space for a 47kg see if you have an lpg pump local and use a refillable

one of the local shell garages does LPG, didnt know you could get refillable bottles

local place does 19kg off the shelf from what i can remember from taking bottles for refil for my grandmother but that must have been 12 years ago now...i know back then they needed a day or 2 to get a 47 in as one of the neighbours used them for their caravan.

any idea roughly on cost of a 47kg bottle without an empty? im assuming there will be about a 50-80 quid bottle rental as with most things these days

edit, looks like its going to be around 150 for the intial bottle and around 80 for a refil

 

[hotponyshoes]

one of the local shell garages does LPG, didnt know you could get refillable bottles

local place does 19kg off the shelf from what i can remember from taking bottles for refil for my grandmother but that must have been 12 years ago now...i know back then they needed a day or 2 to get a 47 in as one of the neighbours used them for their caravan.

any idea roughly on cost of a 47kg bottle without an empty? im assuming there will be about a 50-80 quid bottle rental as with most things these days

edit, looks like its going to be around 150 for the intial bottle and around 80 for a refil

Calor 47kg is about £160 around our way.
Then about £100 for a refill.
You'll never get the deposit back so weigh up the cost of that against buying a refillable lpg bottle outright..

That's from a coal yard / calor agent.
Garage forecourt will be far more expensive (if they even have 47kg)

Check local agricultural merchants as well for brands other than calor. Our local ones do Flow Gas or Handy Gas, At least one of those don't charge any deposit and the refills are a little cheaper. Neither are particularly reliable with stock levels though.

 

[steve t]

I've made a good few punches for hot work out of en9 with good success. Mind you I've also used coil springs and leaf spring with some success. I've seen people use half shafts for hammers as well.