Weld on wings 95 vwt4.

  1. Bryan Williams

    Bryan Williams Member

    Messages:
    837
    Location:
    Manchester England
    Screenshot_20201019_171600_com.qwant.liberty.jpg Screenshot_20201019_171541_com.qwant.liberty.jpg My van needs 2 front wings.
    These are weld on.
    A year later they switched to bolt on.
    Been on a few forums, some lads have bought the bolt on later wings and drilled /fettled these to fit.
    The bolt on are twice the price though.
    Other lads have drilled the weld on wings and bolted them on.. This appeals to me more.
    They aren't massive wings the spotwelds are accessible,apart from the vertical door area, the doors may need to come off, I can't see if it is bonded, welded or just floating in the door jamb area.

    My plan would be to drill the spots out with a spotweld bit carry the holes through, bolt or rivnut the new ones on, they are bonded around the wheel arch, this is none existant due to rust.
    I also have to weld on the lip of the bottom of the inner wings that have rotted away.
    My welding skills are basic, I have welded 2mm with arc.
    I have a couple of buzz boxes which would blow through this stuff, but I do have a little inverter that the amps get low enough for me to lay small beads.
    Just basically asking is bolting weld on wings viable, or should I attempt to spot weld or get someone to mig it.. do rivnuts work?
    I think welding a strip of steel along the arch of the inner wing is doable, these vans are a bit sturdier than modern stuff, so I should be able to tack a piece with the inverter.. any thoughts or tips would be appreciated.

    One other thing, I read in one forum post that it was the posters opinion if it was originally welded then it's structural so part of the chassis so should always be welded when replacing.
    Can't see this but curious as to what people think.
    Cheers.
     
  2. frank horton

    frank horton V twins are great but 4"s rule.........

    Messages:
    2,229
    Location:
    Soon 2 B Crete
    if it was welded then common thought would be it's structural
    BUT
    with out having both types of body in front of u , diff to tell....
    the shape may be the same but the material type and thickness my change in production.....
    looking at mine in the past the front chassis rails etc are really well thought out and put together....
    so guess the welded wing won't do much to add strength......
    the bolt on wings if attached to decent metal and USING something like Sikkens panel adheisive would be stronger than just a few bolts on their own....or the modern Polyester version.....
    I'd be going for the cheaper option myself......
    get the repairs that are rotted fixed prop with a mig.....any kinda arc welder is a no no on this thin stuff.....
    Mines a 99 model and really never noticed on mine whats there...bolt on or welded....mine are all original with factory paint....
    Not factory dents tho.....hahaha....
    rivnut's work well but are a bit finiky to get perfect....
    as an add on.....
    before MOT's went stupid u could buy bolt on wings for the MK1 Cortina etc etc mad e from glass fibre....
    and in my years never seen the front end fall of a car because the wings weren't welded.....
    as another add on, modern carp I mean cars, a lot of panels are glued on....!!!!
    hope this helps.....
     
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  3. Sean Another 602 fan

    Messages:
    1,328
    Edinburgh
    they aren't, seem to remember they were just spotted tabs designed to be easily and quickly replaced, these vans were designed to make servicing as fast and cheap as possible.
     
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  4. Ruffian Member

    Messages:
    2,627
    Location:
    Devon UK
    Fiesta wings were welded as were older escorts.

    Non structural panel.
    I would contemplate drilling and riv nuts all besides the door shut/a pillar area as dont like affecting that area. So would either panel bond or weld.
     
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  5. Screwdriver

    Screwdriver Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    6,901
    UK London
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  6. jpmillermatic

    jpmillermatic Member

    Messages:
    1,062
    USA-NY
    Im with these guys, I dont think the fenders (wings) are structural as long as you are bolting them in with enough mounting points to closely achieve the strength that was there from the factory.

    If a year later they were bolt on units, then I would assume, unless a full body/structural upgrade was done by VW in that time, you should have no problems.....

    The only time you may kick yourself for attempting to convert the weld on units to bolt on units, is when you have to decide on where and how to put the mounting points. its not as easy as it sounds....

    JP
     
  7. metalmelt Member

    Messages:
    595
    Location:
    UK
    Sorry Frank but they changed to reduce repair times and insurance costs, they are a deformable part and not a structural part, in simple terms they were designed as an impact part and many vans front wings get a lot of dents and general abuse, this meant that a customer could replace them themselves if they had there own garages, or they had a much wider choice of repairers who didn't have professional spot welding equipment available to them.
     
  8. carbon

    carbon Member

    Messages:
    1,689
    Location:
    S. Glos. U.K
    The bolt on wings are bolted inside the door opening, definitely easier to do with the door off. But from the pictures the offside bolt on one has the air intake vent in the lower part of the panel where the weld on one doesn’t.
     
  9. Bryan Williams

    Bryan Williams Member

    Messages:
    837
    Location:
    Manchester England
    I just took the wrong pic that's all, this is the long nose wing, should had shown the short nose bolt on, just put it on to compare
     
  10. carbon

    carbon Member

    Messages:
    1,689
    Location:
    S. Glos. U.K
    The short nose bolt on wing also has the air intake in the lower edge of the panel if the engine is either 2.4l or 2.5l. Not sure about the 1.9l version as never had one
     
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  11. Bryan Williams

    Bryan Williams Member

    Messages:
    837
    Location:
    Manchester England
    Ah, right.
    I just used it as an example of the bolt on ones.
    They all suffer from the same problem, water from the screen scuttle drains down between the inner and outer wings, but you end up with a compost heap of rotting damp leaves ect sitting on the inner lip of the arch. This also blocks the drain area and water backs up and finds its way into the cab footwell through grommet holes.
    Hard to trace, leads people to think the screen is leaking ect.
    When the wings are off I'm going to try to route a drainage pipe in between the inner and outer wing.
    Don't know why I'm bothered really, can't see them letting us drive these old diesel vans much longer.
     
  12. Bryan Williams

    Bryan Williams Member

    Messages:
    837
    Location:
    Manchester England
    IMG_20201022_143452.jpg IMG_20201022_143449.jpg IMG_20201022_142024.jpg IMG_20201022_142016.jpg IMG_20201022_142012.jpg IMG_20201022_142001.jpg IMG_20201022_141921.jpg managed to chop first one off before rain stopped play.
    Used a spot weld drill but went straight through a few anyway, not bothered as I think I'm going to be drilling them all through and bolting the new weld on ones..
    There was two spot welds hidden in the door jamb, so inaccessible without the door off so I cut down the wing and chiselled the spots free.
    I thought because I can get behind the support with these two welds on I will just drill though and make captive nuts with sikaflex bond and bolt through, it's just about accessible with the door ajar.
    Maybe rivnuts may be better but know nowt about them, will ask Mr Google.
    Happy I've got my head round it though.
    Also got to replace the bottom edge of the inner arch.
     
  13. carbon

    carbon Member

    Messages:
    1,689
    Location:
    S. Glos. U.K
    See what you mean, that has seen better days.
     
  14. jpmillermatic

    jpmillermatic Member

    Messages:
    1,062
    USA-NY
    It looks like you have plenty of structure where you need it on that inner panel. bolting looks like it will work just fine.

    test fit, test fit, and test fit.....


    JP
     
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  15. Bryan Williams

    Bryan Williams Member

    Messages:
    837
    Location:
    Manchester England
    I want to replace the steel along the arch, it bends up back and the new wing bonds to that along the arch.
    I'm trying to figure out how to recreate the steel lip.
    I thought off making a card template from the inside of the new wing, replicating what the inner wing would look like, leaving it in place inside the new wing, putting the new wing on temporarily, then from under the arch marking a cut line from the edge of the card onto the inner wing.
    Then cutting the inner arch on that line, then using the card to fab up the new inner arch.
    Is there a simpler way I'm missing?
    Don't laugh I'm making it up as I go along.
     
  16. jpmillermatic

    jpmillermatic Member

    Messages:
    1,062
    USA-NY
    you may need to do a little shaping of that inner panel on the vehicle after you have gotten the basic shape worked out and at least tacked in place. Its not exactly the right science, but would work. I have left inner fender lips with a little "extra" material for trimming to fit as progress was made.

    Your plan above makes sense as you do not have a new inner panel to go from.

    JP
     
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