Valencia.

[Bullet2012]

It’s not very energy dense, so you need a lot of it, in high pressure round cylinder shaped tanks to do any distance. Then you need some precious metals to convert it to electric in a fuel cell, then a battery to provide a buffer and then to an electric motor. You could burn it in an engine but that’s very inefficient.

In the meantime you have to firstly produce the hydrogen, using a lot of energy, then pressurise it, store it and transport it, then store it again - all the time it’s doing its best to leak out.

The upshot being, if you charged a battery with the same amount of energy used to produce the hydrogen you would go about 3 times a far.

what about current fuels, diesel and petrol ? are they better in your opinion ?

 

[daleyd]

what about current fuels, diesel and petrol ? are they better in your opinion ?

My opinion doesn’t matter much, but the consensus seems to be they are not great, so we are moving away from them. It seems their days are numbered and people are looking for alternatives, which even if we hadn’t decided they were the spawn of the devil we would have to do at some point anyway I guess.

But the question was about hydrogen which for the reasons above (and more) doesn’t seem a very viable proposition for personal transport. Probably be used for HGV and Agriculture, where having big awkwardly shaped tanks doesn’t matter so much, and where batteries aren’t suitable. But for cars - can’t see it myself. Its not a substance we having lying around waiting to use, so we have to use energy to extract it, so why not use that energy more efficiently (much more) rather than using it to extract, compress, store, transport then store again. Maybe I’m wrong but my fairly limited dealings with hydrogen haven’t convinced me otherwise.

Has it convinced you?

 

[Maker]

It’s not very energy dense,

Interestingly, it has probably the highest specific energy (per unit mass) of any fuel, just a very poor energy density (Per unit volume). Great rocket fuel, where weight savings trump space saving, but as you say, rubbish car fuel.

 

[minimutly]

what about current fuels, diesel and petrol ? are they better in your opinion ?

Would you believe the dopey Welsh Government are handing out grants to outfits to asses the potential of burning hydrogen in ic engines?

 

[cheb]

Salmond was very keen on it too when he was in power.

 

[daleyd]

Interestingly, it has probably the highest specific energy (per unit mass) of any fuel, just a very poor energy density (Per unit volume). Great rocket fuel, where weight savings trump space saving, but as you say, rubbish car fuel.

When we did the hydrogen trial for HyNet on a furnace the pipe work for the hydrogen side was massive, compared to the natural gas side. At “normal” pressures the volume needed was immense. In the main gas inlet area when the furnace was in operation you could hear a faint hiss as it went through, certainly not loud.

When the hydrogen pipe work was installed it was almost deafening in there, the throughput of gas was so much.

I can see it’ll have uses but even the process engineers who worked on the HyNet project were sceptical about car use when we got chatting about it.

 

[OJCar]

 

[Bullet2012]

Has it convinced you?

if it was readily available as a “pump” fuel the answer would be yes.

 

[daleyd]

if it was readily available as a “pump” fuel the answer would be yes.

It’s not - so that’s a no then?

 

[Bullet2012]

It’s not - so that’s a no then?

a hydrogen refuelling plant is fairly local to me, but not sufficient stations across the uk. Yet.
1. HyFive 2, Rainham, Essex (RM13 8EU)
2. Sainsbury's, Hendon, London (NW9 6JX)
3. Hatton Cross, London (TW6 2GE)
4. HyFive 1, Teddington, Surrey (TW11 0LY)
5. HyFive 3, M25 Cobham Services, Surrey (KT11 3JS)
6. M40 Beaconsfield Services, Buckinghamshire (HP9 2SE)
7. Honda Manufacturing, Swindon, Wiltshire (SN3 4QS)
8. University of South Wales, Glyntaff, Pontypridd, Wales (CF37 4BD)
9. University of South Wales, Bagran, Port Talbot, Wales (SA12 7AX)
10. Coventry University, West Midlands (CV1 2HG)
11. University of Birmingham, West Midlands (B15 2FG)
12. ITM Power, Rotherham, South Yorkshire (S60 5WG
13. Aberdeen Council, BOC Hydrogen Refuelling, Powis Terrace, Aberdeen (AB25 3PY)
14. Aberdeen Hydrogen Centre, Langdykes Road, City of Aberdeen (AB12 3FT)

 

[daleyd]

a hydrogen refuelling plant is fairly local to me, but not sufficient stations across the uk. Yet.
1. HyFive 2, Rainham, Essex (RM13 8EU)
2. Sainsbury's, Hendon, London (NW9 6JX)
3. Hatton Cross, London (TW6 2GE)
4. HyFive 1, Teddington, Surrey (TW11 0LY)
5. HyFive 3, M25 Cobham Services, Surrey (KT11 3JS)
6. M40 Beaconsfield Services, Buckinghamshire (HP9 2SE)
7. Honda Manufacturing, Swindon, Wiltshire (SN3 4QS)
8. University of South Wales, Glyntaff, Pontypridd, Wales (CF37 4BD)
9. University of South Wales, Bagran, Port Talbot, Wales (SA12 7AX)
10. Coventry University, West Midlands (CV1 2HG)
11. University of Birmingham, West Midlands (B15 2FG)
12. ITM Power, Rotherham, South Yorkshire (S60 5WG
13. Aberdeen Council, BOC Hydrogen Refuelling, Powis Terrace, Aberdeen (AB25 3PY)
14. Aberdeen Hydrogen Centre, Langdykes Road, City of Aberdeen (AB12 3FT)

I think there’s only half a dozen of those open to the public, with a few being shut recently (there used to be 12 or so) .

As you say, one day Rodney …maybe

 

[addjunkie]

Toyota is investing heavily in Hydrogen development, so is JCB and a fair few big haulage outfits. I believe there was some cash in the budget for it too.

 

[daleyd]

Toyota is investing heavily in Hydrogen development, so is JCB and a fair few big haulage outfits. I believe there was some cash in the budget for it too.

JCB use it in ice type engines, can certainly see the use for it agriculture and construction, hgv etc. Toyota have had the Mirai on sale for years, I think that and a Hyundai are the 2 current hydrogen cars you can buy in the uk.

 

[Maker]

Another argument against Hydrogen - It's a fossil fuel!

Sure it can be made renewably by splitting sea water, but currently, industrially, it's produced by steam reforming methane.

 

[daleyd]

Another argument against Hydrogen - It's a fossil fuel!

Sure it can be made renewably by splitting sea water, but currently, industrially, it's produced by steam reforming methane.

The idea for hynet, which was/is a viability trial for blending it with natural gas for households and industry, was that even though its currently made from natural gas, the resulting carbon that is created during the manufacture "could" be captured and stored, which is hard to do otherwise.

It wasn't done at the time, when I was involved (about 2 years ago now)but it was a relatively small scale trial for an industrial process to see the effects it would have.

The idea was that eventually it would be produced from water, but there were a lot of maybes.

 

[Stupoty]

That Stammer fella committed 22Billion into carbon capture which is mainly a hydrogen production method from gas (blue hydrogen vs green hydrogen <---"Buzz words") , so hopefully some of it will get used

Stu

 

[addjunkie]

That Stammer fella committed 22Billion into carbon capture which is mainly a hydrogen production method from gas (blue hydrogen vs green hydrogen <---"Buzz words") , so hopefully some of it will get used

Stu

Is that the mussing 22 billion weve herd so much about!…..bin the rubbish and stick to petrol motors I say.

 

[Stupoty]

Is that the mussing 22 billion weve herd so much about!…..bin the rubbish and stick to petrol motors I say.

No no a totally different 22Bn , turns out Boris was sticking 50's under the mattress and the Rishi never found them. We are saved !



Stu