Unbraked Trailers in Agriculture

[Justme]

Old cars are. The little SJ413 I just bought weighs 900kg and has a plated train weight of 2.5 tonnes! What we're manufacturers thinking back then?

Anyone remember the video of a little Fiat being pulled backwards down a hill by a big caravan? I reckon that Fiat was within its plated limits as even big caravans weigh less than a tonne and those old cars had silly high limits.

Sadly a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Its rated to 2500kg GTW with a BRAKED trailer.

Unbraked the law is that the real weight cant be more than 50% of the cars kerb weight.

Pre 19-01-2013 if you had a BE there are NO limits on the plate weight of the trailer behind a cat B vehicle. Real weight must be within GTW/GCW.

 

[Justme]

The 'pre 96' rule (?) makes things interesting as well:
The family fleet includes Mk1 & 2 MX5s and a Series III Land Rover.

Mk 1 MX5 is pre 96 and so has no manufacturer's recommended towing limit. So tow bars are listed. It has one and can legally tow an un-braked 750kg trailer as that is less than 85% of the tow vehicle guideline (At least I think it's legal!)
Mk 2 - which is the same body in white - has no declared towing limit so cannot tow at all.
Even more calamitously its declared maximum gross weight is only 130 kg more than its declared kerb weight! So put 2 normal six foot plus sons in it and its overweight. Put one son and small girl friend in it and its over weight. Put one son and a week's shopping in it and.....you get the picture.

How did Mazda do something so daft? Because the EU standard passenger for emissions testing is deemed to be 65kg with no luggage allowance. So Mazda just used 2*65kg as the maximum load, assuming it was some pointless bit of bureaucracy.

The Series Land Rover is terrifying. With its original 8" drums the hand book gives the maximum towing weight as 4.25 TONS.

When looking at a possible shopping trolley for SWAMBO I thought it might be useful to use it for the tip runs. The first few I checked had zero towing limit. Most sports cars have zero. I don't know of an electric vehicle with a manufacturer declared towing limit yet.

So lots of guidance from Justme will still be needed in the future!

The rule is re the licence (01-01-1997) not the car so when the car was made or registered does not matter.

The 50% law still applies re unbraked trailers & kerb weight.

The 85% was never a law & was just guidance issued by a caravan club.

The new prius is supposed to have a tow limit.

 

[Justme]

My 1977 John Deere 2130 is 2WD and about 70HP, it has no trailer braking functionality.
The 3 ton trailer is a standard Ferguson type design, A frame, tipping ram, solid axle and although it does have braked hubs these are only connected to a parking brake.
I use this combo to travel the 6 miles on A roads to the local quarry to collect 3 tons of scalpings that I use in gateways and track creation.
All up train weight I guess is around 7.5 tonnes* with just engine and rear wheel braking on the tractor.
Is it a legal combination?


*Tractor 3000kg
Loader and bucket 750kg
Trailer 750kg
Scalping 3000kg

Your over loaded.

The 3 tonne trailer is 3 tonne inc the trailer.

The trailers real weight should not be more than 1500kg if it has no brakes.

If brakes are fitted they must work.

You cant have a parking brake & no normal brakes.

 

[Justme]

The VIN plate quotes only 2 weights (or mass if you want accuracy)
They differ by precisely 130kg.

I cannot now recall the labels associated with these masses and the car is 300 miles away.

The weights on the vin plate are MAM & GTW not kerb & MAM.

 

[Justme]

I think the 85% guideline has a rather more robust source than the Caravan Club though

Nope. They made it up.

Remember it comes from a time of lighter cars, no licence limit of trailer weight, no training, no test & no enforcement.

 

[Justme]

While the training and testing is in essence a good idea (and enforcement should always have been a thing) I've had no trailer training or testing yet I've proved I could out maneuver 5 people who had recently passed their trailer test - they all attempted to reverse a loaded twin axle trailer behind a transit tipper round a corner into a barn with a door about 6" wider than the trailer and were just about to unhitch it to push it in by hand when the boss told them to let me try

Even with training and testing, few people ever really 'get' it...

Most do enough to pass & then almost never reverse again. Like all skills it needs constant practice to just stay the same never mind get good at it.

Most car drivers cant reverse the car never mind a trailer.

The test reverse is too easy.

 

[brightspark]

I can reverse my trailer in to very narrow gaps and round corners even though the tow bar to wheels is short. if I don't use it for 6 month I'm crap for a few outings

 

[Bill Edwards]

Seeing as I've not done it I don't know - what's involved?

I'd like to think you'd have to parallel park, after reversing a decent distance, while negotiating at least 3 restricted width gates - but I'm probably asking too much

The reversing test is actually quite hard. They provide an S bend to back round with enough room for an artic!
For those who can actually reverse having such a ridiculous amount of space but with low traffic cones it's not so much a test of reversing but a test of can you follow a procedure given by the instructor - pull up to this point, turn the wheel to this point, reverse this far, turn wheel to y point, go further and then turn to y and finally line that up to stop in the right place etc.

 

[Justme]

The size of the area is not the same as for a lorry.

The size is set to a multiple of the vehicle & trailer length.

Bill, if that was how you were taught then sadly they only taught you to pass the test & not the principles of reversing.

I spend more time not doing the test reverse but doing reverse exercises to build the skills needed.

 

[Justme]

I think what Bill was getting at (and if the YouTube videos I've just watched are accurate I agree with him) is that the space given is big enough to do the same route in a lorry - not that it's the same space as in the lorry test...

Not a chance.

For example lorries can be about 16m.

My current car & trailer is 8m (soon to be 9m).

The area is from start line.
Bay 1x (8m)
B cone 2x (16m)
A cones 4x (32m)

An articulated/trailer lorry would have about double that.

The area is 11m wide, so you are moving over by aprox 8-9m.

You cant get a 16m lorry to turn in the 16m gap between B & A cones.

Yes it looks big & is big.

My set up could do it still easily with no wild turns if the length from B cone to the A cones was reduced by 4 m.

Never tried it but the B cones to the C cones could also be reduced too.

I think the 4x total distance could be reduced to 3x for my set up.

Other set ups might not be as maneuverable.

The idea of the reverse is to go round an object you cant see once you start.

 

[fizzy]

The type of trailer makes a big difference as well. I would much rather reverse a tripple axle boat trailer than one of those little halfords specials!

 

[Bill Edwards]

My point is that the amount of space available for a car/van with a trailer is big enough to allow a wagon. Not saying that it's anything like the tests for wagons but that the space given is ridiculously big for a trailer, no ability required at all.

 

[rcx132]

One day, I'd like to do the trailer test (or at least, perform the required actions with someone who knows the test structure)...

I wouldn't want to pay to do it, but it would be interesting.

You may be in luck then, I've been involved in developing an online simulator designed for the UK trailer test, it looks almost ready to launch in the next month, I'll get you access.

 

[8ob]

My point is that the amount of space available for a car/van with a trailer is big enough to allow a wagon. Not saying that it's anything like the tests for wagons but that the space given is ridiculously big for a trailer, no ability required at all.

SWMBO is a horseist and part of what she does is schooling, we get about ten nag trailers a day pull into here and invariably they cant turn them around which is ridiculous because its the same space we turn the artic around in. Irrespective of the space given on the test I believe the training is a good thing. If I have the time ( meaning if they are totty) I spend a few moments with them and its amazing the difference a few pointers can make to their reversing skills.

Bob

 

[normspanners]

You just connect the single line hydraulics on the trailer

but it hasnt got brakes ?

 

[8ob]

but it hasnt got brakes ?

Post#32

My 1977 John Deere 2130 is 2WD and about 70HP, it has no trailer braking functionality.
The 3 ton trailer is a standard Ferguson type design, A frame, tipping ram, solid axle and although it does have braked hubs these are only connected to a parking brake.
I use this combo to travel the 6 miles on A roads to the local quarry to collect 3 tons of scalpings that I use in gateways and track creation.
All up train weight I guess is around 7.5 tonnes* with just engine and rear wheel braking on the tractor.
Is it a legal combination?


Just need to add the hydraulic ram kit Norm.

Bob

 

[wookie]

You cant have a parking brake & no normal brakes.

I beg to differ, as I have a trailer that has drum brakes and that only works as a handbrake, there is no possible way for it as built to work as a service brake, so does that mean it falls into the un-braked i.e. sub 750kg category of trailers then ?

It's not homemade, it was produced in volume by a big manufacturer but it is rather old...

 

[normspanners]

http://www.fofh.co.uk/tech/trailer.htm

Road vehicles Construction and Use regulations 1986

Regulation 18- Maintenance and Efficiency of Brakes. Every part of every braking system and the means of operation thereof fitted to vehicle shall be maintained in good and efficient working order and be properly adjusted.
Regulation 85- Trailers Drawn by Agricultural Motor Vehicles.
1) No person shall use or cause or permit to be used, on a road, a wheeled agricultural motor vehicle drawing one or more wheeled trailers if the weight of the drawing vehicle is less than a quarter of the weight of the trailer or trailers, unless the brakes fitted to each trailer in compliance with regulation 15 or 16 are operated directly by the service braking system fitted to the motor vehicle.
This means a tractor ( 1000kg ) can tow a trailer with a gross weight 4 times that of the tractor (3999kg) without the trailer brakes having to be operated directly by the braking system of the tractor i.e. Ferguson TE20 and Ferguson 3 ton trailer, but trailer brakes must still comply with reg 15 or 16
2) No person shall use, or cause or permit, to be used, on a road any motor vehicle drawing a agricultural trailer of which (a) more than 35% of the weight is borne by the drawing vehicle; or (b) the gross weight exceeds 14230 Kg, unless it is fitted with brakes as mentioned in paragraph 1
Ferguson TE20 and Ferguson 3 ton trailer appears to comply with 2a
Regulation 15- Braking Systems of Certain Vehicles First Used On or After 01.04.83
This regulation does not apply to-
a) an agricultural trailer or agricultural trailed appliance that is not, in either case, drawn at a speed exceeding 20 mph;
d) an agricultural motor vehicle unless it is first used after 1 June 1986 and is driven at more than 20 mph:
e) a vehicle which has a maximum speed not exceeding 25 Km/h (15.5 mph)
Irrespective of how fast your tractor can travel, as long as you remain below 20 mph this regulation does not apply. HOWEVER Agricultural vehicles travelling in excess of 20 mph must be fitted with a service brake applied progressively by the tractor service braking system and a fail safe secondary braking system with a certain required braking efficiency. All tractors and trailers exceeding 30 mph on public roads must be fitted with 2 line air operated brakes which achieve a service brake efficiency of 45% and a fail safe secondary brake efficiency of 25%
Regulation 16- Braking Systems of Vehicles to Which Regulation 15 Does Not Apply
This regulation does not apply to
3(ba) a trailer which has a maximum total design weight that does not exceed 750kg; (bb) a trailer which is:-
(1) an agricultural trailer trailer manufactured before 1st July 1947 (2) being drawn by a motor tractor or an agricultural motor vehicle at a speed not exceeding 10mph and (3) has a laden weight not exceeding 4070 kg and (4)is the only trailer drawn.
Trailers manufactured on or after 1st April 1938 and being either a track laying vehicle, an agricultural trailer or a vehicle manufactured before 1st January 1968 ( except agricultural trailers ) must comply with the following:
Schedule 3
3) The vehicle must be equipped with an efficient braking system.
10) The brakes of a trailer shall come into operation automatically on its overrun, in the case of a track laying trailer by a vehicle having steerable wheels the front or a wheeled trailer, the driver of, or some other person on, the drawing vehicle, or on the trailer shall be able to apply the brake on the trailer.
14) The brakes of the vehicle shall apply in the case of a wheeled vehicle to at least 2 wheels the vehicle has no more than 4 wheels and to at least half the wheels if the vehicle more than 4 wheels; and in the case of a track laying vehicle to all the tracks.
17) the parking brake shall be capable of being set so as effectively to prevent two at least of the wheels from revolving when the trailer is not being drawn

The brakes fitted to Ferguson 3 ton trailers which can be operated by the tractor driver from the tractor seat appear to comply with this regulation.

Wendelspanswick Might be worth printing this off and keep it on you when loaded and stay below 20 mph no out of gear down hill runs !!

 

[normspanners]

Your over loaded.

The 3 tonne trailer is 3 tonne inc the trailer.

The trailers real weight should not be more than 1500kg if it has no brakes.

If brakes are fitted they must work.

You cant have a parking brake & no normal brakes.

AFAIK fergie did the 30cwt and 3ton trailer and that weight stated is the payload
IE
30 Cwt
The Ferguson 30Cwt trailer was introduced in 1952, designated as Model L-JE-40 (tipping) and L-JE-30 (non-tipping). It was listed in the 1954 price list in two forms: non-tipping priced at £90-0-0, or tipping £112-10-0.

It is a smaller trailer than the common 3 ton model but is ideally suited to the Grey Fergie tractor. The body capacity is 1.5 cubic yards, with a maximum payload weight of 30Cwts.

The tailgate can be removed for loading or emptying. The sides are metal but the floor is wooden. The tipping mechanism is operated by the tractor hydraulics.

The trailer is connected to the tractor using the ‘automatic pick up hitch’ mechanism which is both quick and easy.

Unladen weight of the trailer is 9Cwt (approximately 450kg) and the rated maximum payload is 30Cwt (approximately 1500kg).

I beg to differ, as I have a trailer that has drum brakes and that only works as a handbrake, there is no possible way for it as built to work as a service brake, so does that mean it falls into the un-braked i.e. sub 750kg category of trailers then ?

It's not homemade, it was produced in volume by a big manufacturer but it is rather old...

I agree
Also, the brakes cant work as service brakes because it has a ring hitch welded to the draw bar, I think the 20mph rule works here btw.

 

[normspanners]

Just need to add the hydraulic ram kit Norm.

Yes but if you do that it then has to work but is not needed legally