Top end rattle from 2012 Defender Puma/Transit engine

[Rannsachair]

A good friend of mine has had a Puma Defender from almost new. Now done just over 50k miles.

It broke down: oil pump siezed and broke teeth took it to a garage. Supposedly a good enough garage but they had it for 7 weeks and he only got it back when he he gave them a deadline. So damaged parts replaced and all seemed ok: timing chain new cam lifters and ladder but it has a pretty loud tappety noise. The motor runs just fine ,no loss of power starts first time . Tappet sound dosent change with revs just a tinny kind of tappety noise but quite loud.

He is not happy putting it back to the garage that rebuilt it and has partially stripped it down: Unhooked all the wiring, remvoved all the injectors, took of rocker cover, nothing obvious so far lifter ladder looks good and no loose rockers. So next he plans to put back injectors and wiring and fire it up without rocker cover.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

 

[tom2207]

Check the bracket on the exhaust , if its the same set up as a transit. The bracket weld cracks , still looks welded on , but its not, a buggger the first time you see it , after that its handy

 

[roofman]

Is the tapping RPM variable or constant?

 

[Rannsachair]

Is the tapping RPM variable or constant?

Constant

 

[tom2207]

it was the thin tinny sound that pointed me at the exhaust ,,,

 

[Rannsachair]

it was the thin tinny sound that pointed me at the exhaust ,,,

Thanks @tom2207, I have suggested to him checking the exhaust.

 

[roofman]

if not exhaust i would go with a bracket not put back correctly on motor..hose bracket or along those lines. cant be motor if not rpm related

 

[CompoSimmonite]

Try a independent Land Rover specialist rather than a general vehicle garage ?

 

[Rannsachair]

My old friend has been in touch, still has a rattle from the top end. Tried all suggested, though it still goes ok and has now done another few thousand miles.

Tested all injectors, replaced seals, replaced injector pump, no luck.
He took it to another specialist who suggested small ends and was quoted £4600 to repair! Previous garage charged him £2500 for the initial repair. He does not feel worth spending that much and is tempted to just keeping using it until something fails.

I have no experience of the Transit engines, any more suggestions welcome.

 

[Bornfree]

Little end noise is more of a knock than a rattle. And it will vary with engine speed.

 

[m_c]

Oil pump failure on these engines was a known issue, with Ford modifying and recalling them. The pump vanes used to explode, and take out the casing.

Did the vehicle physically stop, or did he stop when the oil warning light came on?
Without knowing why the timing chain and cam followers were changed, or how it sounds, it could be a valve/piston collision issue.

 

[Ubique]

A cylinder leakage test & timing check would be my first points to look at, I'd also be checking that the HP pump is phased correctly.

 

[Rannsachair]

Oil pump failure on these engines was a known issue, with Ford modifying and recalling them. The pump vanes used to explode, and take out the casing.

Did the vehicle physically stop, or did he stop when the oil warning light came on?
Without knowing why the timing chain and cam followers were changed, or how it sounds, it could be a valve/piston collision issue.

Engine was fine then he switched engine off at temporary traffic lights, tried to restart and it made a grinding noise and would not start.

It had a new timing gear new pump and complete hydraulic lifter ladder and engine flushed.

 

[Ubique]

Would not start or would not turn over (or turned over slowly/lumpy)?
Sounds like 'parts darts' TBH

 

[m_c]

Sounds like a valve has kissed a piston, which will make these sound anything from rattly to knocky.
The fact it had to get a new rocker assembly, would also suggest valve/piston interference.

It could run for long enough in it's current state, or it could simply go bang.
Given the costs of rebuilding the engine, especially if you're reliant on paying somebody else to do it, I'd be looking at a reconditioned engine if I was planning on keeping the vehicle.

 

[Rannsachair]

Would not start or would not turn over (or turned over slowly/lumpy)?
Sounds like 'parts darts' TBH

would not start and made grinding noises when turned over. Stopped trying as soon as heard noises.

 

[Rannsachair]

Sounds like a valve has kissed a piston, which will make these sound anything from rattly to knocky.
The fact it had to get a new rocker assembly, would also suggest valve/piston interference.

It could run for long enough in it's current state, or it could simply go bang.
Given the costs of rebuilding the engine, especially if you're reliant on paying somebody else to do it, I'd be looking at a reconditioned engine if I was planning on keeping the vehicle.

We had that same conversation. If it was me I would organise one as would always feel could go bang at any time.

 

[Ruffian]

Valve and piston would change with engine revs though as rotational part.
Same as small end rattle.

But if not starting that wouldn't just be oil pump failure.
That's more like locked up and jumped the timing etc.

There is more to this story than "oil pump failure"

 

[Ubique]

I can't honestly remember the setup, it does sound like there is a missing or damaged 'O' ring between the cylinder head & the camshaft carrier which would give low oil pressure (with resultant noise) from the top end.
I agree with the above, there is more to this than oil pump failure.

 

[8ob]

Its never going to get fixed using armchair diagnostics, hoof the thing out of the engine bay and strip/check everything. Bottom line is this engine has had an oil pump failure, I personally wouldn't be happy until its been gone through properly.

Bob