Suspension geometry

[prepman]

You're talking SVA test? That requires an inspection but again that's not the case here and it's nothing to do with my response to another member about insurance being invalidated.

Ok ....So which bits of what I said was imaginary?

 

[Pete.]

Ok ....So which bits of what I said was imaginary?

Well, the bit we're you said I raised an issue for a start. I haven't raised any issues in this thread.

 

[dobbslc]

Looking at a sub frame wouldn't having the pivot point raised 15mm pull the bottom of the wheels in causing positive chamber? That's assuming the arms drop from the mounting pivots down to the wheels and don't rise.

 

[prepman]

Well, the bit we're you said I raised an issue for a start. I haven't raised any issues in this thread.

But I didn't even reply to you and I agreed with what you said, so why the 'Imagination' tag?
It's not a point scoring excercise. There masses of things I know little or nothing about and accept it.

 

[Pete.]

It was your comment about ending up in jail as if it was some likely outcome from making a small modification to a subframe. It's the most unlikely of outcomes.

 

[indy4x]

Father jailed after four of his children died in Land Rover river crash

A man has been jailed for causing the death of four of his children who drowned when his Land Rover plunged into a river.

www.telegraph.co.uk

And it wouldn't be the first or last time.

From what I can find online it was a combination of poor maintenance as well as bad modifications

Struggling to find exact details but odd calipers on the same axle, badly welded suspension arm and a rusty bracket that let go have been mentioned

 

[prepman]

It was your comment about ending up in jail as if it was some likely outcome from making a small modification to a subframe. It's the most unlikely of outcomes.

You've let imagination run riot.....At NO point did I suggest it would be a logical outcome. Surely the gave it away?

 

[prepman]

From what I can find online it was a combination of poor maintenance as well as bad modifications

Struggling to find exact details but odd calipers on the same axle, badly welded suspension arm and a rusty bracket that let go have been mentioned

I think going back to the 70's when I was patching up old cars just to keep them running, gas welding. MOT tests were far more lenient. In today's atmosphere what I did back then would not have been acceptable. Being a youngster ignorance was bliss. Fortunately none of my early repairs caused any problems. Ignorance tends to make people over confident. Just a cautionary tale. I now always challenge my own decisions when not proven by experience,

 

[chrisg3103]

This escalated a bit, the only modification needed to the frame is add the handbrake cable mounts, nothing structural.
It's good to hear lifts if 40mm have not altered the suspension in any detrimental way.
Obviously a 4 wheel alignment would be done before use, was just wondering if this frame would throw out the readings to the point of it's not even worth trying.

The only visual difference between Freelander and Evoque frames are an added bolt on bar at the front, insurance inspector would need to go over it with a tape measure to tell the difference!
But the modification thing is a whole can of worms, fitting any spares other than genuine land rover counts as modification. What if you change steel to cunifer brake pipes etc.

 

[tom2207]

This escalated a bit, the only modification needed to the frame is add the handbrake cable mounts, nothing structural.
It's good to hear lifts if 40mm have not altered the suspension in any detrimental way.
Obviously a 4 wheel alignment would be done before use, was just wondering if this frame would throw out the readings to the point of it's not even worth trying.

The only visual difference between Freelander and Evoque frames are an added bolt on bar at the front, insurance inspector would need to go over it with a tape measure to tell the difference!
But the modification thing is a whole can of worms, fitting any spares other than genuine land rover counts as modification. What if you change steel to cunifer brake pipes etc.

you dont have to go that far ,,,, a simple tyre size change is enough . as for spacers ,,,,,,, good grief beyond me , but plenty do it.

 

[bricol]

15mm on an off road type vehicle, I wouldn't even think about it. Just fit it and carry on as normal. Insurance don't go through the vehicle with a fine tooth comb measuring ride height that you could lose just by fitting a different set of tyres. Make yourself a set of adjustable rear control arms to alter the height they don't look complicated.

Wish the inspector who came to look at my car after it had been rear-ended had known he wasn't supposed to use the fine tooth comb! Even questioned the lack of a boot carpet! Turned out okay in the end, but they were looking for anything to avoid paying out.

Home made, or altered, control arms would need to be a declared mod, as I suspect the "incorrect" sub-frame would be. Some insurers would simply say "thanks for telling us, that's £xx additional premium (or even none at all) - others would say they don't insure modified vehicles . . . make sure you use the right one. You might never need to find out, but having them take you to court to recover payout as their "expert" has determined your undeclared mod was a contributing factor.

Back in the 80's I remember reading about insurers declining cover due to modifications - in one case, due to stickers down the side, another due to "ghia" wheels fitted to a base model Escort - both being "modifications" from standard that made it a higher risk of theft etc.

 

[minimutly]

Just fit it and try it, 15mm is well within the travel range of the suspension. If it looks right, take it for a spin somewhere quiet, throw it around a bit, if the handling is fine (ie no roll induced oversteer - the most dangerous but unlikely side effect) you're good to go. Tell your insurers, and tell them the most prominent experts in the uk (this forum) passed it as good, and youre done. Joking here - you may be asked to submit an engineering report though - good luck finding one. The sva doesn't check handling - unless it's so bad a spin around the yard shows it up?
Someone pointed out that fitting oversize tyres can cause issues - well this is true, add tall tyres to the rear while leaving the fronts can really screw up your handling, roll induced oversteer again. This is mostly due to the roll height changing at the back, but other things can be going on as well.

As usual the prophets of doom on here (national failing if you ask me) will tell you that you will rot in prison for ever if you do this....
Edit to ask - the pic shows one set of radius arms - are these the lower sets, so there will be another set bolted to the shell? If so you are likely to find there might well be a change in static camber, and maybe some change as the wheel goes up and down. The fix would be to spacer the frame back to where the original was, provided that puts the inner pivot points back to where they were originally.

 

[Pete.]

You've let imagination run riot.....At NO point did I suggest it would be a logical outcome. Surely the gave it away?

Straw-man arguments. Not my cup of tea.

 

[prepman]

Straw-man arguments. Not my cup of tea.

Pass.

 

[stuvy]

I’d definitely be rust proofing the new one with tons of waxoil etc

 

[prepman]

This escalated a bit, the only modification needed to the frame is add the handbrake cable mounts, nothing structural.
It's good to hear lifts if 40mm have not altered the suspension in any detrimental way.
Obviously a 4 wheel alignment would be done before use, was just wondering if this frame would throw out the readings to the point of it's not even worth trying.

The only visual difference between Freelander and Evoque frames are an added bolt on bar at the front, insurance inspector would need to go over it with a tape measure to tell the difference!
But the modification thing is a whole can of worms, fitting any spares other than genuine land rover counts as modification. What if you change steel to cunifer brake pipes etc.

I almost certain that you will make a good job of it and it won't be an issue. It is finicky job but nothing major. Mini subframes were often replaced from the scrappy. But my earlier post wasn't to do with anyones competency or functioning of the repair. It was purely a consideration of what is legal to do to a vehicle to be used on the public roads. Wasn't unusual to see repaired vehicles 'crabbing' in the 60's.

 

[minimutly]

I almost certain that you will make a good job of it and it won't be an issue. It is finicky job but nothing major. Mini subframes were often replaced from the scrappy. But my earlier post wasn't to do with anyones competency or functioning of the repair. It was purely a consideration of what is legal to do to a vehicle to be used on the public roads. Wasn't unusual to see repaired vehicles 'crabbing' in the 60's.

The trouble is/was, you were wrong. Modifying a vehicle isn’t illegal. That’s the problem in this country - loads of self confessed experts thinking they know what’s “legal”.
If you have an opinion, great. If you know the law even better....

 

[prepman]

Unfortunately its a major structural component and this alone alters things substantially, I would speak to your insurer after getting evidence this is a safe modification and providing it to them.

It's also had max publicity now.

 

[prepman]

The trouble is/was, you were wrong. Modifying a vehicle isn’t illegal. That’s the problem in this country - loads of self confessed experts thinking they know what’s “legal”.
If you have an opinion, great. If you know the law even better....

Did I say I knew it was illegal? So how can I be wrong? But you 'know' it to be ok and obviously know the law?

 

[Morrisman]

Wish the inspector who came to look at my car after it had been rear-ended had known he wasn't supposed to use the fine tooth comb! Even questioned the lack of a boot carpet! Turned out okay in the end, but they were looking for anything to avoid paying out.

Home made, or altered, control arms would need to be a declared mod, as I suspect the "incorrect" sub-frame would be. Some insurers would simply say "thanks for telling us, that's £xx additional premium (or even none at all) - others would say they don't insure modified vehicles . . . make sure you use the right one. You might never need to find out, but having them take you to court to recover payout as their "expert" has determined your undeclared mod was a contributing factor.

Back in the 80's I remember reading about insurers declining cover due to modifications - in one case, due to stickers down the side, another due to "ghia" wheels fitted to a base model Escort - both being "modifications" from standard that made it a higher risk of theft etc.

My BMW bike had had the ABS system removed, before I bought it, because a new hydraulic unit to replace the failed one would cost more than the bike is worth. So it is essentially now just the non ABS version of the same bike.

I told this to my insurance people when I called up to get cover, and they have simply put ‘brakes altered’ on the insurance cover document ever since.

I doubt very much whether the girl I spoke to on the phone actually understood what I was on about, but they have recordings of every phone call, so it was clearly pointed out.