Dcal
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Thanks for the link, the price seems to jump about, but that's the cheapest I've ever seen.
I also made a carbide bar, I'll post later on what I did.
- Thread starter Dcal
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Thanks for the link, the price seems to jump about, but that's the cheapest I've ever seen.
I also made a carbide bar, I'll post later on what I did.
Dcal
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Hard to argue with this @Turbo but sometimes it's the hard material that wears more and the proper ones are hardened.
Having said that it's in the manufacturers interest to sell more belts.
I will try out all the versions I now have, but my initial thoughts are, as the bar wears and gets hairy it will create more friction and wear, if it stays polished and shiny the bristles will flick off easier but that's pure conjecture.
Do you think I'm overthinking this?
After just 5min running I could see signs of wear on the stainless bar.
I'm sure it would have lasted a fair while but while I was in the mood, I thought I'd make something that sould last longer.
Like @Agroshield and @hotponyshoes have suggested, I thought about 10.9 and 12.9 bolts or a drill bit shaft but found some carbide cutting steel the right size.
There was no way I was going to drill and tap it so only option I have availble was tig braze.
I thought I might struggle with a sound joint so I put a washer on the shaft first to act as a stop and take any lateral load off the joint. Then brazed a M8 bolt to the end of the carbide. I knew I would not get a M6 straight so instead used a M8 so I could turn it to size and thread it.
I put it in the lathe to turn it down to 6mm.
Some carbide was diluted into the braze and bits were as hard as glass but I got it to size.
However the wheels came off when I tried to tap it to M6 and it broke off at the carbide.
Tried it a couple of times more with tig with the same results.
I went to a mates with OA and gas brazed it.
That worked fine.
I tried a couple of differient tig rods, sifcupron 17 and phosphor bronze No 8 but had the same result each time.
It was probably down to the operator, but they all failed at the carbide and I'm sure I overheated it but how do you not with an arc?
Anyway the cheap no 1 gas rod worked for me.
From left to right is the stainless version, the carbide version and an original.
That was not worth doing for the £10 I saved (£7 if I take into account the price of the carbide and even less with gas, cutting tips and rods) but if you don't try you won't learn.
Agroshield
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If you look at Rob Renz' YT stuff, he generally silver solders carbide. Rather than a butt joint, maybe have the carbide as a male peg going into a steel hole. Pop a sliver of silver solder in the bottom, flux and clamp together and heat until you see the ring appear.
Dcal
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Thanks @Agroshield lots of useful information as always.
I have a few sticks of silver solder, the self-fluxed type.
Would I need to flux the socket and / or the carbide?
And if so with what?
Could I scrape off some of the flux from the silver solder? Or would OA brazing flux do?
Also just wondering can you (as in me) tig braze brass?
I struggle and the zinc seems to boil every time I try it and if I don’t heat the brass until it fizzes I don’t get a good joint (not that I do when it does boil)
Brass to steel I can sort of work with, but brass to brass is dodgy with lots of blow holes.
When I fill it up with tig braze it works, but I assume I've already boiled off the zinc by that stage.
I can make a reasonable joint with OA but I don’t have any gas at home and would prefer not to pay for the bottles for the few times a year I use it.
I do have propane, if I could make that work.
I have a few sticks of silver solder, the self-fluxed type.
Would I need to flux the socket and / or the carbide?
And if so with what?
Could I scrape off some of the flux from the silver solder? Or would OA brazing flux do?
Also just wondering can you (as in me) tig braze brass?
I struggle and the zinc seems to boil every time I try it and if I don’t heat the brass until it fizzes I don’t get a good joint (not that I do when it does boil)
Brass to steel I can sort of work with, but brass to brass is dodgy with lots of blow holes.
When I fill it up with tig braze it works, but I assume I've already boiled off the zinc by that stage.
I can make a reasonable joint with OA but I don’t have any gas at home and would prefer not to pay for the bottles for the few times a year I use it.
I do have propane, if I could make that work.
Agroshield
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I think with silver soldering, you flux everything you want the solder to flow onto. The goto resource for this sort of stuff is CuP Alloys. I believe silver solder flux is borax-based, generally of a paste-like consistency, with water as the carrier. So at a pinch domestic borax might do. I think the white borax is equivalent to Easi-Flow flux and the black flux that RobRenz uses is similar to Tenacity flux. In the US, Harris would be a good resource to check out. See also here:
https://soldersandfluxes.co.uk/Products/Silver-Soldering.html
I think you are correct about TIG brazing brass - the heat is so intense the zinc boils.
Propane works with silver solder: most model steam engines have copper boilers silver soldered together using propane. In the old days, they used a traditional blowlamp. For success, I believe it is necessary to contain and reflect the heat as best you can using a firebrick hearth. Another slightly hotter option might be MAPP/MAP plus/MAP X (lots of different names).
If you can look past the foibles of the presenters, this (in fact, the whole of the Supreme Skills series) is very interesting:
Another huge resource is here (concentrate on things that suggest hard soldering):
https://archive.org/search.php?query=soldering
https://soldersandfluxes.co.uk/Products/Silver-Soldering.html
I think you are correct about TIG brazing brass - the heat is so intense the zinc boils.
Propane works with silver solder: most model steam engines have copper boilers silver soldered together using propane. In the old days, they used a traditional blowlamp. For success, I believe it is necessary to contain and reflect the heat as best you can using a firebrick hearth. Another slightly hotter option might be MAPP/MAP plus/MAP X (lots of different names).
If you can look past the foibles of the presenters, this (in fact, the whole of the Supreme Skills series) is very interesting:
Another huge resource is here (concentrate on things that suggest hard soldering):
https://archive.org/search.php?query=soldering
Dcal
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@Agroshield many thanks for doing the research and putting this info here for me.
You’ve certainly given me lots to think about.
I think the solder I have is 1.5mm 40% silver so I've ordered some low and high temp flux from CuP. I will try your idea of a soldered socket for the carbide, hopefully the silver solder I have will flow.
I'll report back when I've had a go.
Looking on the net, silver solder is bloody expensive.
You’ve certainly given me lots to think about.
I think the solder I have is 1.5mm 40% silver so I've ordered some low and high temp flux from CuP. I will try your idea of a soldered socket for the carbide, hopefully the silver solder I have will flow.
I'll report back when I've had a go.
Looking on the net, silver solder is bloody expensive.
Dcal
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Flux arrived so I will have a play later.
I made a guard to finish off the tool.
In hindsight I should have made it removable for the tight spots but it really needs a guard so maybe it's best you can't use the tool without it.
I might make a smaller one to get into the bits this can't . I missed out on a slow speed air die grinder, so it will have to wait for now.
Started with some 2mm sheet and bent it to shape.
Then welded it to the accelerator bar mounting plate
I went looking in the scrap pile and found some stainless tube that fitted my Mirka sander extraction hose.
It was off an old lamp, being a hoarder pays off sometimes.
Tig brazed it to the guard.
And cut it to size
I'll give it a lick of paint next time I'm doing some spraying, but that doesn't stop it working.
Tried it out on some light rust
It does the job
Also works on mill scale
And scaly rust
Even works on old galv as a prep for painting
Also makes short work of badly applied one coat factory paint
But for the intricate awkward bits, you can't beat a blast, but I couldn't blast a motor without expecting problems.
The brushes loose their edge quicker than I'd like, but all in all I'd call this a win.
I made a guard to finish off the tool.
In hindsight I should have made it removable for the tight spots but it really needs a guard so maybe it's best you can't use the tool without it.
I might make a smaller one to get into the bits this can't . I missed out on a slow speed air die grinder, so it will have to wait for now.
Started with some 2mm sheet and bent it to shape.
Then welded it to the accelerator bar mounting plate
I went looking in the scrap pile and found some stainless tube that fitted my Mirka sander extraction hose.
It was off an old lamp, being a hoarder pays off sometimes.
Tig brazed it to the guard.
And cut it to size
I'll give it a lick of paint next time I'm doing some spraying, but that doesn't stop it working.
Tried it out on some light rust
It does the job
Also works on mill scale
And scaly rust
Even works on old galv as a prep for painting
Also makes short work of badly applied one coat factory paint
But for the intricate awkward bits, you can't beat a blast, but I couldn't blast a motor without expecting problems.
The brushes loose their edge quicker than I'd like, but all in all I'd call this a win.
Dcal
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Tried out the flux and silver solder
The flux came in a envolope containing a couple of small plastic bags.
Decanted them into a sealable plastic jars and added water.
I started with a 10mm carbide and a 12mm steel bar (I think) drilled a shallow 10mm counter bore with a milling bit
Cleaned, then applied EF flux to both parts and heated to dull red with a propane torch.
Seemed to take well and cleaned up nicely took less than an inch of silver solder.
I held the carbide in the lathe chuck and turnned down a step and a M6 thread on the mild steel bar.
Cut the carbide down and job done
Thanks again to @Agroshield for telling me how to do this, it's certainly a far better way of doing it than my earlier effort.
The flux came in a envolope containing a couple of small plastic bags.
Decanted them into a sealable plastic jars and added water.
I started with a 10mm carbide and a 12mm steel bar (I think) drilled a shallow 10mm counter bore with a milling bit
Cleaned, then applied EF flux to both parts and heated to dull red with a propane torch.
Seemed to take well and cleaned up nicely took less than an inch of silver solder.
I held the carbide in the lathe chuck and turnned down a step and a M6 thread on the mild steel bar.
Cut the carbide down and job done
Thanks again to @Agroshield for telling me how to do this, it's certainly a far better way of doing it than my earlier effort.
Agroshield
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Right now, the way you use it, the body has to be parallel to the surface being cleaned. If you made a duplicate holder for the accelerator bar just in front of the guard, would that allow you to use it with the grinder body square to the surface and improve access to tight spots?
With the peg and socket solder joints, you can snip off a small piece of solder*, drop it into the hole before the peg and then the capillary action will draw it up. This minimises expensive solder use. Final heating to make it flow concentrated on the peg as the solder will follow the heat.
* If you are keen, you can work out the volume needed: the area of the base circle and area of the cylindrical part multiplied by joint thickness (maybe 10 thou') gives volume of solder. Convert that into length of rod for snippage. Once snipped, pound it flatter and drop in hole.
With the peg and socket solder joints, you can snip off a small piece of solder*, drop it into the hole before the peg and then the capillary action will draw it up. This minimises expensive solder use. Final heating to make it flow concentrated on the peg as the solder will follow the heat.
* If you are keen, you can work out the volume needed: the area of the base circle and area of the cylindrical part multiplied by joint thickness (maybe 10 thou') gives volume of solder. Convert that into length of rod for snippage. Once snipped, pound it flatter and drop in hole.
Dcal
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Will do.
I'll link to where I got the gear, but hopefully there are even cheaper options out there.
Dcal
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I agree with your thinking @Agroshield.
The tool is almost too big for the brushes.
It works well when the surface you are treating is in front of you but the head, guard etc. gets in the way if there are inside corners etc.
I am very tempted to make another tool that takes the 11mm wide belts and fits on a die grinder.
I have a monster variable speed Metabo die grinder that might do the job but I think an air die grinder / drill would work better (if I can get one that runs slow enough for the brushes and has the torque.)
I missed out on one on ebay that said it was 2.5k rpm but the speed might have been out by X10 so I wasnt that bothered.
It would really need a geared head?
What do you think?
I suppose I could just buy one, but where's the fun in that.
Dcal
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I've been using this for a while, so thought it's time for an update and to provide a list of tools and materials used in the build. (sorry for the delay @Turbo )
Even with the silly amount of time I spent on this, it was still worth doing because of the crazy price of the proper tool (new or secondhand)
I'll do a review in a separate post.
Parts list and prices
Katsu Burnishing sander - £55 (£40 see note) - ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100093-E...658810&hash=item4192e1d406:g:kt0AAOSwYMldb6oj - Note price reduced to £40 because the handle thread was striped (easy fix with a heli-coil)
New spindle - £0? - Scrap and my time machining it. Note - This (and the guard) are the only things that have to be made to get the tool working. You could modify the spindle that came with the tool which would speed things up, but you wouldn’t be able to use the burnishing head that came with the tool.
13.5 x 4 Woodruff key cutter - £12-95 Chronos (ebay) - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCT-Wood...-Diameter-x-4-mm-SCT11072014-HSS/302529768204
MBX Bristle Blaster Hub - F27.50 - ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEMA-23-...r-Brush-Belt-Housing-Adapter-Hub/224079960601 Note - I made one of these just to see if I could and it works OK, however it breaks the wires close to the slots so I had to buy a proper one anyway.
MBX Bristle Blaster belts - £110 for 10 - ebay Note - These retail at over £30 each! I paid £110 when I bought them but I've seen them as low as £80 and as high as £180 for the same thing @hotponyshoes had a source but not sure he has any left. There are different grades so you need to be careful what you buy.
Accelerator Bar - £16-50 + vat and carriage - Rust UK https://www.rust.co.uk/product/industrial-bristle-blaster-accesories-142 - I made one from round 8mm carbide tool steel I had kicking about but if you had to buy it, say £7, add some silver solder and machining it's probably not worth it unless you’re like me and like making things. Special thanks to @Agroshield for telling me how to make this properly and his other excellent advice and guidance.
Guard - £0 – Made from scrap and my time making it.
Replacement Mains flex - £2.94 - Screw fix pond cable to replace the horrible PVC flex that came on the tool - https://www.screwfix.com/p/time-3183p-black-3-core-2-5mm-flexible-cable-10m-coil/425jy
Bristle Blaster belt sharpening tool - £0 - Made from scrap and a pleasant 3 or so hours making it. Someone that knows what they are doing could do it in a fraction of that time. This is a surprising effective way of sharpening the belts and far better than turning them on the tool as recomended.
Bristle Baster belt sharpening stone - £0 - Use any stone you have, I use a concrete grinder stone but an old grinding wheel will be fine. At a pinch a lump of concrete will work. Note it will destroy the stone so don't used anything to want to use for anything else.
Even with the silly amount of time I spent on this, it was still worth doing because of the crazy price of the proper tool (new or secondhand)
I'll do a review in a separate post.
Parts list and prices
Katsu Burnishing sander - £55 (£40 see note) - ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100093-E...658810&hash=item4192e1d406:g:kt0AAOSwYMldb6oj - Note price reduced to £40 because the handle thread was striped (easy fix with a heli-coil)
New spindle - £0? - Scrap and my time machining it. Note - This (and the guard) are the only things that have to be made to get the tool working. You could modify the spindle that came with the tool which would speed things up, but you wouldn’t be able to use the burnishing head that came with the tool.
13.5 x 4 Woodruff key cutter - £12-95 Chronos (ebay) - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCT-Wood...-Diameter-x-4-mm-SCT11072014-HSS/302529768204
MBX Bristle Blaster Hub - F27.50 - ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEMA-23-...r-Brush-Belt-Housing-Adapter-Hub/224079960601 Note - I made one of these just to see if I could and it works OK, however it breaks the wires close to the slots so I had to buy a proper one anyway.
MBX Bristle Blaster belts - £110 for 10 - ebay Note - These retail at over £30 each! I paid £110 when I bought them but I've seen them as low as £80 and as high as £180 for the same thing @hotponyshoes had a source but not sure he has any left. There are different grades so you need to be careful what you buy.
Accelerator Bar - £16-50 + vat and carriage - Rust UK https://www.rust.co.uk/product/industrial-bristle-blaster-accesories-142 - I made one from round 8mm carbide tool steel I had kicking about but if you had to buy it, say £7, add some silver solder and machining it's probably not worth it unless you’re like me and like making things. Special thanks to @Agroshield for telling me how to make this properly and his other excellent advice and guidance.
Guard - £0 – Made from scrap and my time making it.
Replacement Mains flex - £2.94 - Screw fix pond cable to replace the horrible PVC flex that came on the tool - https://www.screwfix.com/p/time-3183p-black-3-core-2-5mm-flexible-cable-10m-coil/425jy
Bristle Blaster belt sharpening tool - £0 - Made from scrap and a pleasant 3 or so hours making it. Someone that knows what they are doing could do it in a fraction of that time. This is a surprising effective way of sharpening the belts and far better than turning them on the tool as recomended.
Bristle Baster belt sharpening stone - £0 - Use any stone you have, I use a concrete grinder stone but an old grinding wheel will be fine. At a pinch a lump of concrete will work. Note it will destroy the stone so don't used anything to want to use for anything else.
hotponyshoes
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I have got a decent amount of the 23mm carbon steel belts left, and a few of the other grades/sizes.
I have a few of the tools as well but only in pneumatic versions.
Just a note on the accelerator bars - if you want to use the stainless belts for weld prep use a stainless accelerator bar as well otherwise the brushes really hammer tiny bits of steel into the material and you get specks when you weld it.
I have a few of the tools as well but only in pneumatic versions.
Just a note on the accelerator bars - if you want to use the stainless belts for weld prep use a stainless accelerator bar as well otherwise the brushes really hammer tiny bits of steel into the material and you get specks when you weld it.
