Stealing Work

[1192simon]

Hi Guys and Gals, hope your all in good form. Little question/survey .. Here Goes ...
I run a site installations company fitting steel etc. Been at it for over 10 years.
I have had one customer for over 5 years with no probs. Well, last week, 3 of my blokes decided to leave and have now gone on the books for this company direct. I have told the company i am not happy, but cant moan too badly as i still have work for them. But i made it clear to the blokes that left , that they have broke an unwritten rule in work. Leave by all means.. But dont steal my customers. I have invested in them for over 5 years . Please , could you guys give me your opinions on this ? In case i have got it completely wrong. Thanks very much

 

[ukracer]

In the car parts business it's not unusual for people to move to where the money is every 3 years or so AND take their clients with them. If they can take more than their wages worth of business with them the new company are quid's in..

 

[Tiggy_dorset]

Am I right to assume your blokes were self-employed? They must have their reasons to go from SE back to being on the books; perhaps they feel they are better off, which you cannot knock anyone for. If there is any mallice involved with their decision though, only you will know that.

 

[dannyp]

unless you had a clause in there contract preventing them from doing so there isn't much about it you can do. if you did well ..........

problem a few companies have found by not offering proper contracts and ether keeping people on ultra basic contract, self employed ect ect.

one outfit i do some work for are getting a bit sweaty, because they never very keen to give me a contract and now they've tryed to i'm in no rush to sighn it. and i know way way way to much about one of there projects

 

[rtbcomp]

I left an employer to go self-employed. I just happen to mention to their customers what I was doing and three of them (good customers too) approached me to look after their computers for them. There was no come-back from my ex-employer, in fact I even did some work for them too.

They did ask me to sign a declaration to say I left their employ voluntarily.

 

[dannyp]

self employed is really a bit of a crap deal, dosent pay enough in comparision to being on the books in most instances. if i was offerd the work for me direct ? option i would probaly take it, as self empoyment is just makeing less and less sense and teh bank really don't like it

 

[Richard.]

Unfortunately it's a case of tough luck. As unwelcome as it may be, good guys get poached for better offers all the time. For 3 of them to do it there must of been either something not quite right with them doing work for your company or this other company has made them an offer they cannot refuse. What they should of done is come to you first and asked you for changes or what they wanted. If that wasn't an option then it's fair game for them to do what they want to.

 

[brightspark]

-unfortunately for u that's the way it works

 

[NickyEng]

I left self employment for a while after being tempted by the dark side. The company and boss ended of been horrendous and within two years I was back in self employment. I was much more financially sound In employment. Your former employees may think the grass is greener on the other side but it might not me.
Unless there was a clause in there contracts there is nothing you can do. Morally probably its wrong but not legally wrong when an unwritten rule

 

[Pete.]

IF you could snatch a tasty contract out from under someone you'd do it - those guys have done nothing more. No point dwelling on it or it'll eat you up. It's just business, get over it and move on.

 

[oilcooled :)]

That's the name of this trade.good fellas work where they want not where you want them too. That's the reality off it. Don't forget for the likes of me the day the last pipe is welded is usually my last days work. That works the other way round too

 

[1192simon]

Great replies. Cheers. Gonna add a bit more info now. These guys were taken on 3 years ago as labourers. After a while they wanted more money and i said the only way you can do this , is to learn how to weld and fit stair balustrade returns on site. I put them with my fully skilled guys for them to learn. They eventually picked it up. I also put up with all their money problems too. I need a sub every week, or, can you divert my tax cos CSA are after me. Also , never kept them on week in hand. I understand they were self employed and paid them good money to compensate them. What grates is that i found this customer and have bent over backwards in 5 years to keep them happy. They gave me no notice at all. Just left. They had secure jobs with me. I even got into massive trouble with a company they worked for , where they stole a brand new sitebox belonging to someone else from site. That cost me £450 . I just feel proper ****** off over it all .

 

[1192simon]

Am I right to assume your blokes were self-employed? They must have their reasons to go from SE back to being on the books; perhaps they feel they are better off, which you cannot knock anyone for. If there is any mallice involved with their decision though, only you will know that.

Only that i showed them loyalty over the years. When work was quiet with this company, i made sure they had work every day. Even if that meant working at my house etc. Cos i couldnt put them onto proper steel installations cos they didnt have the skills. All they could do was stair balustrade returns .

 

[Kent]

self employed is really a bit of a crap deal, dosent pay enough in comparision to being on the books in most instances. if i was offerd the work for me direct ? option i would probaly take it, as self empoyment is just makeing less and less sense and teh bank really don't like it

Spent years working self employed often with up to 18- 24 months at one place
It can be abused at low level but at higher levels it's the way to go for both sides

Either party can just depart to better things and you don't get hammered for tax and the employer don't get hammered for pension contributions etc
The government never really like it as they just can't control it enough- that's also pretty neat
Besides it quite good getting a deal based purely on results achieved rewards for your efforts not how little can we get away with paying the guy
The banks seem to do alright out of it and I have never had a grumble from them

 

[colnerov]

Hi, If they can't manage their money that's their problem not yours and you bailing them out for their criminal activity. Then I think you might be better off without them.

Colin

 

[Pete.]

Stealing = sacked, end of story. I don't care how good you are or how long you've been if you nick gear you're down the road. They probably marked you out as a soft touch after that one.

 

[Tiggy_dorset]

Remember we are only speculating purely on the information that the OP has given us, perhaps there is more to the story....
At the moment all fingers seem to be pointing at the guys whom left, isn't it equally possible that it is the other company that has instigated the move? Offering the guys a tempting deal purely to gain their skills and product/working knowledge for the company's own gain and cutting out the OP's company?

 

[skotl]

In my industry, it's very common to have an employment contract that states a non-solicitation clause for six months and non-compete clause for 12 months.
The non-solicitation means I can't poach other employees from the company for up to six months after I leave.
The non-compete clause means I can't entice customers for a year after I leave.

In both cases, given that I signed the contract, they would have a decent case to come after me so I won't do it - you could be looking at damages claims of five figures for a poached employee's salary, or six figures for a poached customer

So both types of clause would be worth considering for full-time employees. Of course, if you use self-employed contractors, then things might be different but, if you do have a contract with them, then I guess you could put almost anything in that contract!

---

Finally, a lot of our customer/supplier contracts also have non-solicit clauses explicitly stating that neither party can entice workers from the other business to join theirs, typically within 12 months of any purchase order being received (which effectively stops either company stealing employees for as long as the businesses trade together).
In your case, have a look at whatever supplier contract you and the other company signed way-back-when; perhaps there already is such a clause in there (but if your guys were self-employed, then you're probably stuffed).

 

[pedrobedro]

Being self employed for one company is a crap deal, and not entirely within the rules anyway.

That's how I understood the rules, I always worked in factories and on a wage but if you are working for one employer you are classed as an employee in the government's eyes or for HMRC purposes.

 

[Kent]

In my industry, it's very common to have an employment contract that states a non-solicitation clause for six months and non-compete clause for 12 months.
The non-solicitation means I can't poach other employees from the company for up to six months after I leave.
The non-compete clause means I can't entice customers for a year after I leave.

In both cases, given that I signed the contract, they would have a decent case to come after me so I won't do it - you could be looking at damages claims of five figures for a poached employee's salary, or six figures for a poached customer

So both types of clause would be worth considering for full-time employees. Of course, if you use self-employed contractors, then things might be different but, if you do have a contract with them, then I guess you could put almost anything in that contract!

---

Finally, a lot of our customer/supplier contracts also have non-solicit clauses explicitly stating that neither party can entice workers from the other business to join theirs, typically within 12 months of any purchase order being received (which effectively stops either company stealing employees for as long as the businesses trade together).
In your case, have a look at whatever supplier contract you and the other company signed way-back-when; perhaps there already is such a clause in there (but if your guys were self-employed, then you're probably stuffed).

The main part of these contracts is to instil fear. In British law you can't sign away your normal rights and you cannot restrict somebody in future employment self employment or PAYE
Got to say it takes guts to break them but they can be, might want to seek advice first mind you from a contract law solicitor