Starting vehicles with a jump pack ?

[indy4x]

Several makes recommend switching sidelights on to avoid any damage.
Vauxhall movano/Renault master if you muck up the connection when getting ready to jump start then you have to take the passenger footwell apart to access the battery (jump points are under the bonnet) take the terminals of the battery and hold them together. It resets something.
I have no idea the reasons why it went have 5 Renault masters and have had to do it quite a few times.

My Movano had a jump point in the engine bay, not noticed one on my 05 Master, yet

 

[Cobbler]

My Movano had a jump point in the engine bay, not noticed one on my 05 Master, yet

My Transit has as well, I assume this is because to access the battery you need to remove the seat

 

[indy4x]

An advantage with EVs...if everything is working correctly they top up the 12v battery from the main traction battery I believe.

....if everything is not working correctly I've heard they too may need a jump start!

You would be correct, got stranded when my iPace battery wasn't charging, RAC patrol pumped some juice into the 12V battery so I could drive it home

 

[reb78]

My Movano had a jump point in the engine bay, not noticed one on my 05 Master, yet

I find these interesting. I have had several instances where using the jump points I have been unable to start a dead vehicle. Linking straight to the battery and it has started as expected. I dont know why this is. I would have thought the jump points were merely an alternative connection point and shouldnt make a huge difference to how the connection works?

 

[Robotstar5]

There was a used car lot opposite the shooting club and I've seen the owner jump starting cars by inverting a good battery and jamming it on the terminals of the dead one no jump leads required.

 

[8ob]

It was the big mains powered starter chargers that caused problems with some cars/trucks, these glovebox sized starter boosters seem quite tame by comparison.

Bob

 

[skotl]

If that's the case, then you have a problem - no vehicle 'modern' or otherwise, should draw >50mA quiescent current, usually much lower, around 30mA. I'd suggest you have the cause investigated whilst it's still in warranty, the good thing is that there should be comprehensive battery monitoring stats available to confirm the concern and point to the cause - which may well be the starter battery itself.

That's wrong surely!
My Surf sits unused for quite long periods of time with fairly old batteries and only needs a jump start very rarely.

It's a known issue and not something the dealer can address. I'm ambivalent about it now - it doesn't cause me any problems day to day...

 

[keithski122]

There was a used car lot opposite the shooting club and I've seen the owner jump starting cars by inverting a good battery and jamming it on the terminals of the dead one no jump leads required.

I've also heard about this being done, gel battery from a mazda mx5 works well apparently.

 

[dobbslc]

It's a known issue and not something the dealer can address. I'm ambivalent about it now - it doesn't cause me any problems day to day...

I wish I was that laid back

 

[Melvyn Best]

Jump starting Fiat Ducato’s etc equipped with airbags can and does damage the airbag ECU , it’s a common problem on motorhomes

 

[charlysays]

I've jump started loads of cars too, mostly with jump leads but lots with booster pack too. Never had an issue but it's always been in the back of my mind. Definitely older cars but late 90s early 00s mercedes included. On one merc I briefly connected them the wrong way round, got away with that too.

The only charging related issue I ever had was on my father's Merc.
I was trying to get the alternator working in a hurry and fitted a used voltage regulator out of a used valeo alternator. It was the right part. However upon starting the engine it killed the abs module and pump.
Luckily I had a spare abs pump and module.
Code reader said an issue with a valve in the abs pump and intermittent communication issues with module.
Bought a new alternator and replaced the module and abs pump and it's been fine ever since.

 

[sako243]

Just to point out that any vehicle from the 2000s should comply with various standards. One of which is ISO16750-2 that defines load dumps etc., so any electronic systems should be protected against jump starting, jump packs etc.

This is an interesting read at least for the graphs which show what kind of transients they should be protected against.

If stuff fails then it's either a very very extreme case or it's not been tested thoroughly enough by the manufacturer.

https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/application_notes/littelfuse_tvs_diode_meet_automotive_load_dump_standard_application_note.pdf.pdf

When we build automotive electronics it's pretty common to protect against over voltage, under voltage, surges, transients, spike suppression, reverse polarity and load dumps.

 

[Agrismith]

Just to point out that any vehicle from the 2000s should comply with various standards. One of which is ISO16750-2 that defines load dumps etc., so any electronic systems should be protected against jump starting, jump packs etc.

This is an interesting read at least for the graphs which show what kind of transients they should be protected against.

If stuff fails then it's either a very very extreme case or it's not been tested thoroughly enough by the manufacturer.

https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/application_notes/littelfuse_tvs_diode_meet_automotive_load_dump_standard_application_note.pdf.pdf

When we build automotive electronics it's pretty common to protect against over voltage, under voltage, surges, transients, spike suppression, reverse polarity and load dumps.

I wonder if the symptoms I described of the Renault's is part of this protection system??
Shutting the system down so it can't get damaged

 

[Melvyn Best]

Just to point out that any vehicle from the 2000s should comply with various standards. One of which is ISO16750-2 that defines load dumps etc., so any electronic systems should be protected against jump starting, jump packs etc.

This is an interesting read at least for the graphs which show what kind of transients they should be protected against.

If stuff fails then it's either a very very extreme case or it's not been tested thoroughly enough by the manufacturer.

https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/application_notes/littelfuse_tvs_diode_meet_automotive_load_dump_standard_application_note.pdf.pdf

When we build automotive electronics it's pretty common to protect against over voltage, under voltage, surges, transients, spike suppression, reverse polarity and load dumps.

 

[Melvyn Best]

Try telling that to Fiat

 

[Misterg]

Just to point out that any vehicle from the 2000s should comply with various standards.

Should being the key word...

Probably not the ones that Fiat use for the Ducato/Relay/Boxer, but a bit of an eye-opener, anyway:

A class action lawsuit has been filed against TRW and its parent company (ZF), Honda, and Toyoto for equipping vehicles with allegedly defective airbag control units. The complaint says that TRW’s control units don’t have sufficient protection against electrical overstress, which can lead the units to fail during a crash.

"40 Fiat-Chrysler worked closely with ZF-TRW in investigating the airbag
nondeployment in these 11 crashes. It conducted tests to identify what conditions
would cause airbag control unit electrical overstress. In June 2015, Fiat-Chrysler
received results showing that it took less than 100 microseconds for electrical
overstress to occur. ZF-TRW’s testing showed that a “microcontroller reset
occur[ed] at the same instant a negative transient creates an [electrical overstress]
event.”
41. By December 2015, Fiat-Chrysler determined that based on ZF-TRW’s
testing, airbag systems using a ZF-TRW airbag control unit could experience
electrical overstress at negative voltage transients of only -1.2 volts, while airbag
systems in vehicles outside the subject population could withstand negative voltage
transients up to ten times as powerful – approximately -14 volts.
42. Even after this detailed investigation with ZF-TRW’s cooperation, Fiat-
Chrysler failed to issue a recall until September 2016"

(From the document linked from this page: https://www.classlawgroup.com/consumer-protection/auto/trw-airbag-control-unit-lawsuit )

I've got a dead airbag ECU I can send to you if you're curious.

 

[Melvyn Best]

Should being the key word...

Probably not the ones that Fiat use for the Ducato/Relay/Boxer, but a bit of an eye-opener, anyway:



"40 Fiat-Chrysler worked closely with ZF-TRW in investigating the airbag
nondeployment in these 11 crashes. It conducted tests to identify what conditions
would cause airbag control unit electrical overstress. In June 2015, Fiat-Chrysler
received results showing that it took less than 100 microseconds for electrical
overstress to occur. ZF-TRW’s testing showed that a “microcontroller reset
occur[ed] at the same instant a negative transient creates an [electrical overstress]
event.”
41. By December 2015, Fiat-Chrysler determined that based on ZF-TRW’s
testing, airbag systems using a ZF-TRW airbag control unit could experience
electrical overstress at negative voltage transients of only -1.2 volts, while airbag
systems in vehicles outside the subject population could withstand negative voltage
transients up to ten times as powerful – approximately -14 volts.
42. Even after this detailed investigation with ZF-TRW’s cooperation, Fiat-
Chrysler failed to issue a recall until September 2016"

(From the document linked from this page: https://www.classlawgroup.com/consumer-protection/auto/trw-airbag-control-unit-lawsuit )

I've got a dead airbag ECU I can send to you if you're curious.

There are a number of companies that repair Fiat airbag ECUs Crashdata repaired mine , 48 hrs from posting it off to refitting it. Don’t know if you have tried getting yours repaired?

 

[sako243]

I wonder if the symptoms I described of the Renault's is part of this protection system??
Shutting the system down so it can't get damaged

Quite possibly. I can't remember the exact details but largely it depends on what "domain" the system is classed as. Power train, safety, infotainment etc., as to how it's allowed to behave. Non critical stuff I think can shut down permanently (e.g. a fuse blows), other safety critical stuff must keep operating during adverse conditions.

 

[Misterg]

There are a number of companies that repair Fiat airbag ECUs Crashdata repaired mine , 48 hrs from posting it off to refitting it. Don’t know if you have tried getting yours repaired?

Yes - it went to Crashdata, but not fixable. They supplied a new one and copied the coding from the old one so it was a straight plug-in replacement. Was cheaper than just the ECU from Peugeot/Citroen and they wanted to charge me a couple of hours fitting & re-coding the van to recognise it. (You could fit it and remove it again in less than a minute!). The dealer did say that they get a few a month with the same thing - usually motorhomes.

 

[Melvyn Best]

Yes - it went to Crashdata, but not fixable. They supplied a new one and copied the coding from the old one so it was a straight plug-in replacement. Was cheaper than just the ECU from Peugeot/Citroen and they wanted to charge me a couple of hours fitting & re-coding the van to recognise it. (You could fit it and remove it again in less than a minute!). The dealer did say that they get a few a month with the same thing - usually motorhomes.

Mine has been OK for about 3 years since Crashdata repaired it but I do try to leave it on hook up . Apparently turning the ignition on then waiting for the warning lights to go out helps somehow?